COVID-19 reactions and LDS ?????prophetic????? evolution

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_Dr Moore
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COVID-19 reactions and LDS “prophetic” evolution

Post by _Dr Moore »

Friends, first of all, best wishes to you and yours during this tumultuous period of self quarantines, and virtual cheers if you’re enjoying a quarantini and a moment of calming isolated zen. This will pass and we will someday look back and laugh, shake hands and hug strangers to celebrate our shared experiences with this bizarre global pandemic.

Hopefully, it brings out the best in each of us.

Now for the subject: I am fascinated to see posts like this all over social media:

Unattributed:
With all the uncertainty and chaos going on in the world right now...all I have to say is thank goodness for prophets and modern day revelation. #homecenteredgospellearning #theyknowbeforetheworlddoes

I could add a dozen more. The point is that this remarkably confident claim of direct prophetic connection is being expressed, and ardently “liked,” among a decent size cross section of believing LDS members.

Have LDS leaders claimed such a prophetic connection? They sure have not said a word to denounce the notion.

And thus we see the miracle of LDS miracle making in action.

By saying nothing, the event IS proof of a revelation to the world, vocalized by members everywhere.

And because the Q15 have not unanimously voiced confirmation of the prophetic link, their silence on the matter means this claim can never be used against them.

Much like the belief that the apostles have seen Jesus. Perhaps, as Packer once said regarding the inappropriateness of even asking if an apostle had seen Jesus, this too falls in the “too sacred to discuss” category. Would it also require some special authority for a reporter or curious member to simply ask one of the brethren if they saw the coronavirus as the home centered revelation came to them? Or, just as relevant, if they truly believed the home centered church “revelation” was inspired to bless the saints during these tumultuous weeks if cancelled public gatherings?

My concerns with these claims and leader’s non-claiming of a prophetic link are twofold:

1. Allowing members to believe false positives at best undermines faith later, at worst is a deceptive credit-taking for happy accidents.

2. Taking advantage of a temporary but severe global crisis to score revelation points also undermines the claim to revelation itself, because the claimed revelation offers only a fleeting spiritual benefit to church members, but affords absolutely zero benefit of warning that might have aided human suffering broadly. The outcome falls woefully short of the great miracle claimed. Mean God, warms prophet but forgets to tell prophet to warn the world.

Looking at Quentin Cook’s 2018 introduction of home centered church, we read the following summary:

Cook, Oct 2018:
As leaders have sought revelation, the guidance received over the past few years is to strengthen the sacrament meeting, honor the Sabbath day, and encourage and assist parents and individuals to make their homes a source of spiritual strength and increased faith—a place of joy and happiness.

I see three points backing the change:

1. Strengthen church meetings (members come more prepared)
2. Sabbath day observance in the home (members have a program to help with family observance)
3. Make homes more holy (study and pray in the home, home becomes associated with faith experiences)

Nothing here about a warning to the world at large. Nothing about a substitute for Sunday services. Nothing that might be construed as an auxiliary call to prepare by augmenting the now-standard 72 hour kits for food or hygiene storage.

Eh, anyway. I guess it’s an example that people see what they want to see when it reinforces beliefs. Confirmation bias. That church leaders allow if and only if it elevates their prophet, seer and revelator myth.
_Philo Sofee
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Re: COVID-19 reactions and LDS “prophetic” evolution

Post by _Philo Sofee »

Can anyone, maybe Lou or Dan even, point to where any prophet, seer or revelator warned anyone in the world to prepare for the Corona Virus? Was anything said in China, and how to stop it before it started? Did anyone say anything whatsoever to prepare the world for this?! If so, chapter and verse, otherwise, what is the point of the old white guys other than collected Babylonian money for their cattle ranches and malls?
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
_Gadianton
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Re: COVID-19 reactions and LDS “prophetic” evolution

Post by _Gadianton »

Nothing here about a warning to the world at large. Nothing about a substitute for Sunday services.

Right, but this is "pay your tithing" logic. The revelation is cryptic, it takes faith to obey it. The blessing comes in an unexpected way.

But social media has become an exploded view into the mechanics of tribalism, and the internal logic of the tribe was never the main point, as that's just the long way to signal allegiance. A tried-and-true shortcut is lying, and not just lying-for-the-lord where the truth is hidden, but lying in the open, so that it's obvious. If I say something about following the prophet and maybe the prophet really did say that, and maybe I really did benefit from it, then great, people know I toe the party line. But deep down, they may wonder if I didn't have that experience; what then? If I say totally inane stuff that is obviously false -- Trump says the sky is green so it's green -- then that signals real loyalty. If the prophet predicts catastrophes and people follow the prophet then they're just being rational. If the prophets can't predict crap and its obvious, but we credit them showing the path to the world then that's loyalty.

So on the one hand, the internal logic of prophecy isn't straightforward and has always had lots of room for confirmation bias, that's not what's striking about your quotes. What's striking is they are so juvenile that it's unbelievable anybody would buy it -- but being a sheep and buying into stupid things isn't the point. The point is to signal loyalty by trumpeting obvious lies.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Gadianton
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Re: COVID-19 reactions and LDS “prophetic” evolution

Post by _Gadianton »

Dr. Moore wrote:Nothing here about a warning to the world at large. Nothing about a substitute for Sunday services. Nothing that might be construed as an auxiliary call to prepare by augmenting the now-standard 72 hour kits for food or hygiene storage.

If you would like to read a ponderous example of prophets predicting the solutions to all the ills caused by coronavirus, check the link that follows. I'm certain it was written to get under your skin, Dr. Moore.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... tions.html

(by the way, this post is right in line with what I said about lying. The author most likely does not really believe Mormons have a significant advantage for surviving coronavirus than the average person from equal social background. It's eye-rolling factor is exactly what gets the author points for loyalty. However, in this case, the intent was mainly to infuriate Dr. Moore, and so that redeems what would otherwise be a nefarious example of willful dishonesty substantially.)
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_moksha
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Re: COVID-19 reactions and LDS “prophetic” evolution

Post by _moksha »

Dr Moore wrote:Have LDS leaders claimed such a prophetic connection? They sure have not said a word to denounce the notion.

From the rock opera, Joseph Smith Superstar:

"Keep them paying their tithing
But add a touch of hate at Hollywood
We will rise to a greater power
We will have Ensign Peak Investments
For you've got the money and the glory
Forever and ever and ever."
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Dr Moore
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Re: COVID-19 reactions and LDS “prophetic” evolution

Post by _Dr Moore »

Dean Robbers,

I doubt the post you linked was directed or inspired in any way by my post here. It appears aimed at bolstering the faith of believing members in the usual way — a series of allusions to connect current world events with something the church does or has done, leaving the dots to be connected by the reader however they wish. Of course, the believer will see what they hope to see.

To my knowledge the church has not released one dollar of the Ensign Peak funds to provide relief, but I may have missed that press release. Ensign Peak funds, marked to market, are down approximately $23 billion since mid Feb.
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: COVID-19 reactions and LDS “prophetic” evolution

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Gadianton wrote:
Dr. Moore wrote:Nothing here about a warning to the world at large. Nothing about a substitute for Sunday services. Nothing that might be construed as an auxiliary call to prepare by augmenting the now-standard 72 hour kits for food or hygiene storage.

If you would like to read a ponderous example of prophets predicting the solutions to all the ills caused by coronavirus, check the link that follows. I'm certain it was written to get under your skin, Dr. Moore.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... tions.html

(by the way, this post is right in line with what I said about lying. The author most likely does not really believe Mormons have a significant advantage for surviving coronavirus than the average person from equal social background. It's eye-rolling factor is exactly what gets the author points for loyalty. However, in this case, the intent was mainly to infuriate Dr. Moore, and so that redeems what would otherwise be a nefarious example of willful dishonesty substantially.)

I'm sorry: I get that people deal with stressful situations in different ways, but I think the linked-to post is shameful. What, this is an occasion to celebrate being LDS? Are they doing this sort of "morale-building exercise" over at Google and Apple, where some lower-tier functionary "takes up the mantel" and celebrates with everyone over how good it is to be part of the Google or Apple "families", where they boast about how much better off they are compared to everyone else? Or maybe Peterson thinks that him doing this will start some kind of collective "singing," ala those folks in Italy, except this time in the Boggernacle? Seriously, what does DCP think he's doing? The whole thing feels exploitative--like he is using the pandemic as an excuse to proselytize on the one hand (are you listening, Gemli? Can you sense how much better his life is due to theism?), and grandstanding on the other hand: he genuinely believes that he is a spokesman for Mormonism**. Very self-serving, it would seem. A reiteration of guidelines from the experts would be the more responsible path, and yet Peterson, ever the shameless self-promoter, is apparently thinking to himself, "Oh--everyone has already heard a million times from the 'experts.' I have a unique perspective to offer, though, and so that's how I'm going to play this."

** "Executive Producer Daniel Peterson continues to introduce Witnesses to large numbers through his Sic Et Non blog"
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_moksha
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Re: COVID-19 reactions and LDS “prophetic” evolution

Post by _moksha »

Dr. Peterson wrote:Wouldn’t it be reassuring to be a member of a religious organization that — even notwithstanding fierce criticism for doing so — has amassed a sizeable rainy day fund for just such eventualities? A fund that, even though it may or may not itself have been substantially reduced by plunging share prices, is still large enough to maintain that religious organization’s functions as far as they can be maintained through a crisis and to restore them to full health when the crisis has passed? A fund that, beyond mere maintenance, is also able to assist members of the organization, and even non-members? A fund that is adequate for a time when the needs of the people are not only great but, in fact, greater than normal? A fund that is able to meet a short-term crisis without putting the core long-term responsibilities of that religious movement at risk or allowing them to suffer damage that is difficult to repair in the future?

Not sure all Church Authorities would appreciate Dr. Peterson's suggestion that the Ensign Peak funds be used to help members during this period of contagion. Although he could get a pass by pointing out how this was just a theoretical ramble.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Dr Exiled
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Re: COVID-19 reactions and LDS “prophetic” evolution

Post by _Dr Exiled »

Not sure that a Fund that wants its members to clean its buildings to cut costs and that has ultra conservative types running it will be all of a sudden a bastion of charity. What is the fund doing in Italy to help the members there? Anything going on elsewhere in the world or the US or SLC for that matter? The fund, in practice, will hold onto its money at all costs is my guess. However, it's nice rhetoric that Dr. P just gave us. Go Team! Even so, count me as one who doesn't want to run back to conservative dad with his invented guilt and fairytale nonsense. There is too much cost involved for the possibility of minimal assistance, and make no mistake about it, the Fund will position itself as a charity of the absolute last resort. Let government bail out the population prior to forcing the Fund to divest will be their mantra.
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 
_Gadianton
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Re: COVID-19 reactions and LDS “prophetic” evolution

Post by _Gadianton »

Doctor Scratch wrote:Can you sense how much better his life is due to theism?), and grandstanding on the other hand: he genuinely believes that he is a spokesman for Mormonism**. Very self-serving, it would seem. A reiteration of guidelines from the experts would be the more responsible path

I call BS. Granted, there is a hit-and-miss strain of "preparedness" in Mormonism, but I call BS that either he or Lou Midgley has much to do with that. (I would bet, however, that Kiwi57 is prepared) I'd like to see a blog post with specifics about his food storage and Midgley's, their 2-week plans, and their 72-hour emergency kits. I'd also like to know what kind of training they've had for dealing with emergencies, and how much thought they've put into it. In the hundreds of thousands of words he's produced over the years, I've never read a thing that indicates any practical skills. Sometimes academics wear that as a badge of honor. In fact, Midgley, as guy in a high risk class, took a cruise at the outbreak of the virus to confront an "anti-Mormon" on the other side of the planet. Wow, yeah -- these guys are really prepared!
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
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