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On May 5, 1834, the Zion's Camp group left Kirtland, Ohio. They traveled south and then west out of Ohio, into Indiana, passing through Indianapolis. Continuing westward, the traveled into Illinois, passing through Springfield and westward further. On June 3, 1834, Joseph Smith proclaimed the skeleton found in a Havana Hopewell culture mound in Pike County, Illinois, to be that of Zelph, a white Lamanite. (Outside of Mormon circles, the mound is identified as the "Naples Mound 8", "Naples-Russel Mound 8" or "Illinois Archaeological Survey #PK 335.")

In History of the Church, Vol. 2, pp. 79–80, it is explained that (emphases added):

During our travels we visited several of the mounds which had been thrown up by the ancient inhabitants of this country--Nephites, Lamanites, etc., and this morning I went up on a high mound, near the river, accompanied by the brethren. * * *

On the top of the mound were stones which presented the appearance of three altars having been erected one above the other, according to the ancient order; and the remains of bones were strewn over the surface of the ground. The brethren procured a shovel and a hoe, and removing the earth to the depth of about one foot, discovered the skeleton of a man, almost entire, and

between his ribs the stone point of a Lamanitish arrow

, which evidently produced his death. Elder Burr Riggs retained the arrow. The contemplation of the scenery around us produced peculiar sensations in our bosoms: and subsequently the visions of the past being opened to my understanding by the Spirit of the Almighty, I discovered that the person whose skeleton was before us was a white Lamanite, a large, thick-set man, and a man of God. His name was Zelph. He was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus, who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea to the Rocky mountains. The curse was taken from Zelph, or, at least, in part--one of his thigh bones was broken by a stone flung from a sling, while in battle, years before his death. He was killed in battle by the arrow found among his ribs, during the last great struggle of the Lamanites and Nephites.

The next day (June 4, 1834), Joseph Smith in a letter to his wife, Emma, wrote (emphases added):

The whole of our journey, in the midst of so large a company of social honest men and sincere men, wandering over the plains of the Nephites, recounting occasionaly the history of the Book of Mormon, roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord, picking up their skulls & their bones, as a proof of its divine authenticity, and gazing upon a country the fertility, the splendour and the goodness so indescribable, ... .

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... une-1834/2

How do Mormon apologists deal with these statements about the midwest of the United States being part of the Book of Mormon geography? The LGT does not accommodate these statements by Joseph Smith who claimed "visions of the past being opened to my understanding by the Spirit of the Almighty'. Why are they so hostile to the Heartlanders?

I don't get this either, HG. Somehow Mormons manage to simultaneously take Joseph ultra literally on some things, but conveniently ignore him on others.

I ask: who is the greater prophet?
* The guy who claimed to be a prophet and said things with the voice of prophecy
* The person later who deigns to select which of the above prophet's sayings was genuine revelation

???

Here is a site that is continually adding to reasons why christianity is false. http://www.kyroot.com

Perhaps a list should be started for Mormonism? Discounting what past "prophets" have said should be on the list. Also, the deliberate clouding today of what prophecy and/or inspiration is should be another addition to the list of why Mormonism is false. I bet there are literally thousands of reasons.

I think the reason that apologists throw Joseph Smith under the bus on some topics, such as the Supposed location of Book of Mormon events, is because what Jospeh asserted on those topics can now be easily and unequivocally demonstrated to be untrue. However, they will phrase this dismissal of Joseph Smith as simply accepting that he was speaking as a man when he made those claims. It seems you can only tell Joseph Smith was speaking as a man when it later becomes untenable to portray what he said as Prophetic. For instance, ask members to give some examples of things Mr Nelson has said that they consider are him mistakenly speaking as a prophet but in reality what he said was simply him speaking as a man.

Holy Ghost
The LGT does not accommodate these statements by Joseph Smith who claimed "visions of the past being opened to my understanding by the Spirit of the Almighty'. Why are they so hostile to the Heartlanders?

Because a Ph.d is vastly superior to a mere boy prophet with a doubtful and squirrelish education in red neck America of the early 1800's. Ph.d's just know more and know better, and it is better to place faith in their theories than with what Joseph Smith said. Isn't that right Dr. Peterson and Dr. Midgley?

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Thu May 21, 2020 12:03 am

Isn't that right Dr. Peterson and Dr. Midgley?

You would imagine that they would find these truths to be Zelph evident.

moksha wrote: ↑

Thu May 21, 2020 1:48 am

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Thu May 21, 2020 12:03 am

Isn't that right Dr. Peterson and Dr. Midgley?

You would imagine that they would find these truths to be Zelph evident.

Imagine how stupid Midgley will look when he doesn't see your stellar humor here......

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Thu May 21, 2020 12:03 am

Because a Ph.d is vastly superior to a mere boy prophet with a doubtful and squirrelish education in red neck America of the early 1800's. Ph.d's just know more and know better, and it is better to place faith in their theories than with what Joseph Smith said. Isn't that right Dr. Peterson and Dr. Midgley?

For the apologists the geography of the Mormon book is not important for "spiritual growth" (whatever that means). So in the mind of an apologist you just created a straw man.

I have a question wrote: ↑

Wed May 20, 2020 9:32 pm

It seems you can only tell Joseph Smith was speaking as a man when it later becomes untenable to portray what he said as Prophetic.

That is not the case. A lot of Mormons don't believe in the King Follett and other horse crap teachings that can't be disproved. To criticize Mormonism you have to think like a Mormon first or play devil's advocate.

DoubtingThomas wrote: ↑

Thu May 21, 2020 2:25 am

I have a question wrote: ↑

Wed May 20, 2020 9:32 pm

It seems you can only tell Joseph Smith was speaking as a man when it later becomes untenable to portray what he said as Prophetic.

That is not the case. A lot of Mormons don't believe in the King Follett and other horse crap teachings that can't be disproved. To criticize Mormonism you have to think like a Mormon first or play devil's advocate.

If a teaching can't be disproved, such as the King Follett doctrine or other "horse crap teachings," why are they not accepted by that "lot of Mormons"? Do those Mormons just pick and choose, willy nilly per each's own inclinations, which teachings they will and will not believe? Wouldn't they be the quintessential "cafeteria Mormons"?