DiscussMormonism.com

Dr Moore wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:15 pm

The protestors could have cleaned up communities and served in soup kitchens, instead of protesting? Man, how white privileged can you get? And this from a man, who stands in the public eye to elevate a church organization which sits on literally more than $100 billion in liquid investments, that could all be used to clean up communities and open new soup kitchens, rather than sitting there while leaders pretend to be doing the work of Jesus in the world.

The people are not protesting George Floyd. Wake up. They’re protesting because “all of it” needs to stop, because racism is still a huge problem, and to suggest those people should all go back home and serve in soup kitchens to honor George Floyd misses the whole ____ point so incredibly that it is safe to say the person behind that statement is squarely part of the problem and not the solution.

Yes, it's about a whole world of things on top of the egregious murder of one man. And it seems that every day the number of police-murdered black men continues to grow.

Dr. Moore, you are a very learned and intelligent professor, so I know I don't have to remind you that all of the mechanisms white America has used to exploit, harm, impede, and harass Black Americans is nothing less than a simmering genocidal war. It is not as though the deprivation and violence visited on Black Americans is some kind of mistake. It is the result of deliberate policy and law. To pit soup kitchens against genocidal policies is ridiculous.

One can point to the water crisis at Flint, Michigan as a recent representative example of systemic racism that is tantamount to genocidal neglect. In August 2012, Governor Rick Snyder (R) appointed Ed Kurtz Flint's emergency manager to oversee and cut city costs. Initially, Kurtz rejected his predecessor Michael Brown's plan of switching the city from treated water piped in from Detroit to drawing water from the Flint River, but the decision not to use the river was reversed by Governor Snyder's office. Accordingly, in 2013, the new city manager, Darnell Earley, oversaw the switch to Flint River water. By April 2014, residents complained of smelly, foul-tasting water. A Virginia Tech study of Flint's water supply revealed that almost 17 percent of the water samples researchers collected had lead levels above the federally actionable level, 15 ppb.

The responsibility for poisoning thousands of Flint, Michigan residents with dangerously polluted water rests on the shoulders of the white Republican governor of the state, Rick Snyder.

Documents obtained by subpoena reveal that Snyder was warned of the danger of using Flint water a year before the switch occurred. The governor was informed of a Legionella outbreak in Flint six months after the switch (and 16 months earlier that he claimed to have learned about it.) Snyder punished Flint's mayor for refusing Snyder's requests to declare Flint's water safe.

See https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/z3bd ... d-about-it

The immediate motive driving Snyder's decision was probably greed. But this is one of the ways systemic racism manifests itself. Black communities are viewed as expendable when white dollars are on the line.

As I said, this is just one isolated example of an endemic phenomenon. Black and First Nations communities have been and are exploited, put in harm's way, poisoned, murdered, eradicated from their homes, deprived of their dignity, all for the benefit of white people. These criminal acts are often whitewashed with euphemisms such as "cost cutting" and "progress," and the sad part is that this propaganda allows white people, including white Mormon scholars, too often to feel comfortable in their ignorance. They feel they know when they do not. They feel as though the things that white people do with all of their advantages--advantages gained at the expense of Black and Brown victims of white crimes--are feasible options for Black and Brown communities.

This is like telling the good people of Flint that they could have easily gotten water from other sources when theirs started to make them sick. It is like telling Black folks that they just need to do a better job getting out to the polls, when polls are being shut down in poor areas, and when often Black voters cannot get to those polls because their white employers won't give them time off to do so.

The deck is so heavily stacked against Black and Brown communities that the advice of starting soup kitchens is really obtuse. It may be well intentioned, but it is so uninformed of the deep-seated, endemic nature of systemic racism as to sound insulting.

What is the right thing for white Mormons to do in this situation? They need to stop pontificating from a position of ignorance, and they need to start learning. They need to join Mitt Romney in the protests in support of Black Lives Matter. Those with blogs, podcasts, and other organs of rhetorical influence need to spend time devoting those resources to fighting the same fight in whatever way they can. Only by uniting our energies in support of such movements can we move the needle in the right direction. The time to dictate to Black people how they can properly help themselves is over. Now is the time to be an ally on the other side of the conflict. The white war against Black lives will end when white people stop harming Black lives in the thousands of ways they do, and join with Black people to make sure that all of us are truly equal under the law and enjoy substantive equality of opportunity.

Dr LOD wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:37 am

Thanks for saying this so well.

Of my native ancestors about half died due to the Indian Removal period, actions. Of my spouse her people had about a 90% reduction in population due to similar policies and military actions.

About the Tulsa Massacre of 1921. Sometime back I had a nursing home patient who was a survivor when I met him he was 101 years old. He was a famous Jazz Musician. I listened as he gave me his first hand account. I really wish I wrote some of it down. But fortunately his story was recorded somewhere else. If one could put a value on a memory, listening to his stories are some of my most valuable. I’m not sure what he got from that young naïve doctor.

Thank YOU for educating me. What is happening is horrific. And, as you would surely be able to attest, this is not just a case of problems for the ancestors in the past; it is a problem for all of us now. The people who bear the brunt of white crimes against First Nations communities are the First Nations peoples themselves, and then the rest of us. What is happening now should remind us of the tactics used against First Nations peoples protesting the Keystone Pipeline. People opposed the profaning of sacred sites and the ecological damage the pipeline would cause, and their worries were prescient. In November of 2017, the pipeline leaked 407,000 gallons in Amherst, North Dakota. In 2019, 383,000 gallons were spilled in Edinburgh, North Dakota. TC Energy is applying for permits to tap the Cheyenne River, White River, and Bad River.

No one should be fooled by arguments that this stuff was not anticipated or known. People did not want to know. Those in power were moved by money and neo-liberal propaganda. Police and federal authorities used anti-terrorism tactics against people protesting the pipeline.

Kishkumen
What is the right thing for white Mormons to do in this situation? They need to stop pontificating from a position of ignorance, and they need to start learning. They need to join Mitt Romney in the protests in support of Black Lives Matter. Those with blogs, podcasts, and other organs of rhetorical influence need to spend time devoting those resources to fighting the same fight in whatever way they can. Only by uniting our energies in support of such movements can we move the needle in the right direction. The time to dictate to Black people how they can properly help themselves is over. Now is the time to be an ally on the other side of the conflict. The white war against Black lives will end when white people stop harming Black lives in the thousands of ways they do, and join with Black people to make sure that all of us are truly equal under the law and enjoy substantive equality of opportunity.

I doubt many of them want to sully themselves nor "waste" their tithing dollars for the Lord so that when he returns he will have $100,000,000,000 to build HIS Kingdom mansion. Why waste the money on a wicked world when it can be so well used for the righteous Mormons in investments? And help in pandemics? Just use a few anemic dollars somewhere for someone (makes sure they are Mormon first), and then they can brag how charitable they are while never losing a penny of their mountain of money. The pattern has been ongoing for decades now. The entire church leadership were it imbued with a Gospel of love, instead of money and prestige for themselves, would be out marching with the one Mormon leader, who through time, has actually garnered my respect, Mitt Romney. Heck they might even show their priesthood really is an actual force for healing good as it used to be bragged about being, instead of a fairy tale told by idiots doing nothing with that legendary putative "power of God."

Kishkumen wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 14, 2020 7:43 pm

Dr LOD wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:37 am

Thanks for saying this so well.

Of my native ancestors about half died due to the Indian Removal period, actions. Of my spouse her people had about a 90% reduction in population due to similar policies and military actions.

About the Tulsa Massacre of 1921. Sometime back I had a nursing home patient who was a survivor when I met him he was 101 years old. He was a famous Jazz Musician. I listened as he gave me his first hand account. I really wish I wrote some of it down. But fortunately his story was recorded somewhere else. If one could put a value on a memory, listening to his stories are some of my most valuable. I’m not sure what he got from that young naïve doctor.

Thank YOU for educating me. What is happening is horrific. And, as you would surely be able to attest, this is not just a case of problems for the ancestors in the past; it is a problem for all of us now. The people who bear the brunt of white crimes against First Nations communities are the First Nations peoples themselves, and then the rest of us. What is happening now should remind us of the tactics used against First Nations peoples protesting the Keystone Pipeline. People opposed the profaning of sacred sites and the ecological damage the pipeline would cause, and their worries were prescient. In November of 2017, the pipeline leaked 407,000 gallons in Amherst, North Dakota. In 2019, 383,000 gallons were spilled in Edinburgh, North Dakota. TC Energy is applying for permits to tap the Cheyenne River, White River, and Bad River.

No one should be fooled by arguments that this stuff was not anticipated or known. People did not want to know. Those in power were moved by money and neo-liberal propaganda. Police and federal authorities used anti-terrorism tactics against people protesting the pipeline.

My mom protested first at Alcatraz in 1970, then later at the DAPL protests three years ago. In between she was a good Mormon housewife, primary president, YW president and RS president. My spouse's father was in AIM (american indian movement) leadership we suspect his death from a suspicious car accident was related to his work there.

One current issue that the systemic racism has a direct effect is the governments response to COVID and NOT helping the tribes take care of their own people. Here is just the latest where the CDC is refusing to share information with Tribal Health authorities with whom the CDC is required by law to provide that information to.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/1 ... ata-314527

The LDS church has stepped up and provided help to the Navajo Nation in particular, which I am thankful for.

Thank you again for sharing that. Maybe some day you can write a longer memoir covering your recollection of this activism. Or perhaps a history. My uncle Urshel Taylor was a Pima/Ute artist and activist, and I am saddened that I did not know him very well or understand his work when he was still with us. But that is the nature of racism. It even divides family and keeps us ignorant of each other.

Kishkumen wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:09 pm

Thank you again for sharing that. Maybe some day you can write a longer memoir covering your recollection of this activism. Or perhaps a history. My uncle Urshel Taylor was a Pima/Ute artist and activist, and I am saddened that I did not know him very well or understand his work when he was still with us. But that is the nature of racism. It even divides family and keeps us ignorant of each other.

Someday, I think a book by my wife would be more interesting. She has had conversations with Gina Colvin, and Johanna Brooks about her experiences which range from reservation life to interacting with the Mormon Royalty. I would be a good chapter or two addition to her book.

I too have about a half dozen individuals who have passed away who I wish I would have asked more questions and listened more to their experiences. I look back with some disappointment at a time when many of these individuals were alive and I mistakenly thought that the Lamanite story was their story.

Consider the sad misunderstanding (or willful neglect) embedded in this comment, and the person who upvoted it:

Kiwi57 wrote:Details, schmetails. You look like the guys who owned slaves, therefore you personally owe reparations to everyone who looks like the people who were slaves. This is called "social justice," and if you don't like it, that just proves that you're a racist.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... 4955269156

Dr Moore wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:03 am

Consider the sad misunderstanding (or willful neglect) embedded in this comment, and the person who upvoted it:

Kiwi57 wrote:Details, schmetails. You look like the guys who owned slaves, therefore you personally owe reparations to everyone who looks like the people who were slaves. This is called "social justice," and if you don't like it, that just proves that you're a racist.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... 4955269156

If, Kiwi57 lived in the days of Joseph Smith and his instructions were to scrape off the nose of Anubis and call him a slave, would he?

If, Kiwi57 lived in the days of Brigham Young and his instructions were to hang the negro, would he?

I think, Kiwi57, is a racist and that he would commit murder under the orders of Brigham Young. He'd kill Anubis too. Why? Because he has the spirit of murder in his heart as does Daniel F Peterson. They are spiritual murderers having denied the spirit of right and truth. They are like sons of perdition. These Mormon apologists are evil people and pollute the earth with their filthiness. They live in their lies and deny the truth openly!

Yes, Kiwi57, would happily slit Abubis's throat. Isn't that right, Kiwi57 -- you bitch?

The world is changing, and while the specific changes needed may not be clear to everyone yet, collective goodness is beginning to crystallize into something more than simply being “not racist.” Those willing to self reflect a few minutes on the message conveyed by thousands of protests around the world are beginning to realize that we all must choose to be decidedly “anti racism”.

Kiwi57 and his fellow self proclaimed anti-Mormon bigot hunters should take note and reconsider their sanctimonious parades of self righteous nose snubbing at this issue. Snide mockery of the notion that whites who never owned slaves should do something to lift blacks who were never slaves epitomizes the mocking wrongness of the great and spacious building. Thus very attitude has propagated structural inequality for so long, making a movement like BLM a necessity. So Kiwi57 is welcome to sit around masturbating to his achievements and his earned entitlements, and he’ll likely never realize that his unwillingness to see others through their own eyes IS the root of the problem.

Look at just one piece of news from today as an example of unexpected progress. Github is removing the terms “master/slave”, “whitelist” and “blacklist” from its lexicon, to eliminate insensitive references to slavery. How big a deal is this? Well to some it may be trite or silly. I see it as a big deal and an indication of bigger things to come. Consider this: in control system design, which is a massive horizontal field covering most engineering disciplines, the labels “master” and “slave” are as common as “feedback loop” and “recursion.” Likewise, “whitelisting” and “blacklisting” are among the most basic technical terms in cybersecurity. I’ve used these terms literally hundreds, if not thousands, of times in my career. Never once did I wonder if using these terms made me a racist. But it sure didn’t make me anti-racist, and seeing that now makes me realize other small ways that my attitudes and definitions of fairness may also contribute to the problem.

We can all do something to improve on chronic disadvantage imposed on people of color.

After being willing to stay home for 3 months and incur +20% to the national debt in order to save the lives of unknown millions, predominantly elderly, shouldn’t we be capable and eager, right now, to collectively do a few more uncomfortable things to root out harmful, and deadly, systemic inequity in our society?

I am confident, sad to say, that the church will not lead in this step of social progress. The church will not eliminate racist language from the Book of Mormon, and it will not formally apologize for its role in perpetuating racist ideas. The church will not put meaningful dollars to work in poor black communities. It will wait until forced to do anything more than give vapid speeches and over represent photo-ops with the NAACP, because church leaders might not be racists, but they are not yet convinced of the value to being anti-racist, and all that would require.

The hardcore conservative Mopologists are really getting kicked in the teeth these days: first the protests, and now the Supreme Court has ruled that LGBTQ+ folks cannot be fired due to their sexual orientation.