Steve Smoot is a Cruise Lady Tour Guide?

[_Lemmie]

...in the midst of all of this is that the Mopologists have a long track record of leveling charges of priestcraft at a whole range of fellow religionists--everything from the EV "old cash nexus" (per Midgley) to the more recent attacks on Rodney Meldrum and the Heartlanders. How/why is Medlrum's stuff somehow worse than these cruises?

Indeed.

SUMMERTIME in Book of Mormon Lands

Headliner: Michael Goodman

Jul 18, 2021 - Jul 25, 2021

Come on a latter-day adventure with Michael Goodman who will delight and uplift our group with his humorous insights on sea days. Join us on our optional private tours to make the most of your cruising adventure. Try a zip-line ride through the jungle in Roatan or enjoy a day at the beach. In Belize, we offer an exciting river boat ride through the jungle to see the magnificent ruins at Lamanai. Our local LDS guides in Mexico will take us to the beautiful ruins of Tulum from Cozumel. Enjoy sailing with Michael, Cruise Lady and our adventurous LDS group.

“Book of Mormon Lands.” :rolleyes:

[_moksha]

I think Dr. Peterson said all he gets out of it is an expenses paid vacation, which helps to satisfy his craving for travel.

Speak of the devil, did you know that Michael Ballam is a very popular Cruise Lady featured guide?

[_Analytics]

Thanks Lemmie! I think your brother is exactly right. The sales tactics we used selling those books were sometimes quite manipulative, and ironically, one of the things that company management was continuously trying to sell to us was the concept that what we were doing was morally okay. Throughout my experience, they were continuously telling us that the ends justified the means--just think how terrible it would be if these poor children grew up in a household without "The Illustrated Book of Mormon"; what if because of not having this valuable resource they were to drift away from the Church? That would be tragic, which is why we are giving families the opportunity to invest in their children's spiritual education. Family is what's really most important, isn't it. (We were taught to try to say platitudes like that as much as possible and then end them by saying "isn't it" while we nodded our heads and our voice inflection went down. That way they'd get in the habit of agreeing with us and it would be easier to close the sale).

Of course we could see through what they were doing when they were manipulating us like that, which is when they took out the big guns. They repeatedly alluded to a letter that an apostle had sent to the company's president that somehow exonerated what we were doing. The letter apparently had an explicit warning that it needed to be kept secret because they didn't want to create the impression that an apostle endorsed the company's products. But our managers always told us that even though we couldn't see the letter or tell our prospects about it, it really was there. In fact, we were told that if we made it into management, the company's president would take it out of the safe and show it to us personally.

[_Doctor Scratch]

Of course we could see through what they were doing when they were manipulating us like that, which is when they took out the big guns. They repeatedly alluded to a letter that an apostle had sent to the company's president that somehow exonerated what we were doing. The letter apparently had an explicit warning that it needed to be kept secret because they didn't want to create the impression that an apostle endorsed the company's products. But our managers always told us that even though we couldn't see the letter or tell our prospects about it, it really was there. In fact, we were told that if we made it into management, the company's president would take it out of the safe and show it to us personally.

I can't stop laughing about this: it's exactly what the Mopologists do. They are always claiming that they have some letter or memo, or there was some private phone conversation that Midgley had with a GA that proves that the Brethren have given their support to the apologists, etc.

[_Gadianton]

Isn't there something fundamentally Mormon about this? Didn't Joseph Smith also claim he had "some memo" from an ancient prophet saying he was supported?

Anyway, I have a more serious question for the BHR professor.

You mention Smoot's dressing, but photos of several apologists feature suit-wearing. Is Smoot's "GQ" dressing representative of apologetics? If not, could you point out some differences in dress style between Smoot and other apologists, for the benefit of those of us without your trained eye for style?

[_Philo Sofee]

Of course we could see through what they were doing when they were manipulating us like that, which is when they took out the big guns. They repeatedly alluded to a letter that an apostle had sent to the company's president that somehow exonerated what we were doing. The letter apparently had an explicit warning that it needed to be kept secret because they didn't want to create the impression that an apostle endorsed the company's products. But our managers always told us that even though we couldn't see the letter or tell our prospects about it, it really was there. In fact, we were told that if we made it into management, the company's president would take it out of the safe and show it to us personally.

I can't stop laughing about this: it's exactly what the Mopologists do. They are always claiming that they have some letter or memo, or there was some private phone conversation that Midgley had with a GA that proves that the Brethren have given their support to the apologists, etc.

Or some secret vision all by themselves from/with Jesus and Daddy.......

[_Symmachus]

What is interesting (or entertaining?) in the midst of all of this is that the Mopologists have a long track record of leveling charges of priestcraft at a whole range of fellow religionists--everything from the EV "old cash nexus" (per Midgley) to the more recent attacks on Rodney Meldrum and the Heartlanders. How/why is Medlrum's stuff somehow worse than these cruises?

From this perspective, I understand more clearly what you are getting at. As you can plainly see, I am wholly an amateur when it comes the sociology of apologetics, and I do not possess the enviable mastery of its history and culture that you do with the result that I do not always see individual instances as part of a comprehensive trend. What you say does make me wonder, though, about the Heartlanders, who are Smoot's peculiar obsession and object of disdain—have they ever been accused of priestcraft?

What do you mean there objectively is no religious money-making that one doesn't approve of? The world is full of judgmental people.

My impression is that this has toned down over the last decade or two, but historically, Mormons self-righteously looked way down on pastors of other churches receiving even a modest living allowance in exchange for their full-time employment as pastors. So when I make accusations of hypocrisy, I'm not meaning to imply that somebody getting a living allowance is intrinsically bad, I'm implying that it is hypocritical to denounce "priestcraft" in others while you are engaging in it yourself.

Attempting to judge Mormonism by its own values, there is clearly a wide blurry line between acceptable and unacceptable first-class educational and religious experiences for the well heeled. For example, I don't think any Mormon would think Steve Smoot is using his position in the Church for unseemly pecuniary gain. In contrast, if, say, Dallin H. Oaks were to announce he was going to lead an intimate group of Mormons on a deluxe excursion to the promised land at whatever the market rate would be for that kind of thing, I think all Mormons would have a problem with it. Somewhere between those two extremes you get to a line of trading your position in the Church for financial advantage, and I'm arguing that according to Mormonism's own values, that is wrong.

Part of my own sensitivity to this has to do with my own background. You are probably too young to be familiar with this, but there used to be a company that published expensive hard-backed full-color illustrated copies of the Book of Mormon. There were other products in their lineup too, including illustrated biographies of the presidents of the Church, illustrated stories of Church History, and illustrated stories from the Bible.

I have the impression that the copyright of this stuff changed hands from company to company over a series of bankruptcies, but in the summer of 1988, the company was called "Eagle Systems", and they had an 18-year old salesman named Analytics who was trying to sell these books to make some money for his mission.

These books were not cheap--Just the illustrated Book of Mormon, which included a set of cassette tapes that provided a dramatized narration, was $600. And remember, this was 1988. With a group of other Utah college-aged salesmen, we traveled to Seattle Washington and scoured the surrounding stakes, trying to convince families about how great their children would turn out if they knew the Book of Mormon inside and out, and that there was no way they'd learn it better than through our deluxe products. And if they didn't have an extra $600 lying around that was no problem! Zion's bank would loan you the money to buy the books with easy monthly payments for only 22% interest. Yes, the Church discourages debt, but the prophets have said there are two exceptions to that: buying a house and education. And no part of your children's education is more important than their education in the scriptures, right?

I'd say that of the doors I knocked on, about 50% of Mormons were sympathetic with what I was doing, even if they couldn't afford it or otherwise weren't inclined to buy. The other 50% of Mormons thought it was morally wrong of me and my company to try to make a buck off of Mormon scriptures. I took an incredible amount of heat over this, including bishops announcing over the pulpit that I should be avoided, and another bishop who happened to be an attorney actually sending me a cease-and-desist letter.

Ironically, the person who authored and narrated Illustrated Stories of the Bible for us was none other than George Durrant--the guy mentioned in the Faith-Promoting Rumor blogpost above who advertised his high-profile church callings as reasons why you should hire him as your cruise guide. I took a ton of front-line heat from Mormons for selling the books that he wrote. This experience somehow makes me feel entitled to take some of the righteous indignation that was directed at me and pass it on to Durrant.

And that's the rest of the story.

Well, I understand better where you are coming from. This sounds like a horrible experience, and one which I luckily avoided by not going on a mission. The culture of sales always felt uncomfortable to me in the Church, and it certainly fed into and fed on the overall business atmosphere of the LDS Church. I once went to a presentation of security company in Provo (lured by the offer of free food, as any college student would be). I listened to their presentation in exchange for the food, but I had to tell them that I just wasn't interested in selling security systems door-to-door, and that I wouldn't be good at it anyway. They assured me that it was just like a mission, except that if solicitees don't buy the product they won't be damned to the telestial or whatever kingdom it is non-Mormons go to. The pitch faltered when they found out I didn't go on a mission, but they let me stay and eat my fill. It sounds this is something that you actually got sucked it into, and that it far worse than any security company (a Mormon attorney getting invovled? Wow).

By the way, I think I remember my parents telling me about this Durrant fellow, who is married to Susan Easton Black, Google tells me. They knew him for some reason and thought he was a charming guy. I'll bet he was a great missionary, but your product might have been easier to sell if they'd been narrated by Jimmy Durante instead.

[_Lemmie]

What is interesting (or entertaining?) in the midst of all of this is that the Mopologists have a long track record of leveling charges of priestcraft at a whole range of fellow religionists--everything from the EV "old cash nexus" (per Midgley) to the more recent attacks on Rodney Meldrum and the Heartlanders. How/why is Medlrum's stuff somehow worse than these cruises?

From this perspective, I understand more clearly what you are getting at. As you can plainly see, I am wholly an amateur when it comes the sociology of apologetics, and I do not possess the enviable mastery of its history and culture that you do with the result that I do not always see individual instances as part of a comprehensive trend. What you say does make me wonder, though, about the Heartlanders, who are Smoot's peculiar obsession and object of disdain—have they ever been accused of priestcraft?

Yes, on the “pseudonymous” (which of course is much better than being anonymous) Peter Pan blog:

Elder Paul V. Johnson’s warning on the dangers of priestcraft
By Peter | Tags: Church leadership, You're scaring me Brother Neville

June 25, 2019

Among the warning signs of priestcraft, he mentioned the following. I bring these up because I see them very much at work within the “Heartland” movement and its leading individuals. Perhaps this will be a wake-up call to these individuals; I certainly hope it will serve as a warning to those who follow them.

Perhaps some of us feel we teach a deeper doctrine—more pure and plain than is found in any curriculum or than what any of the other teachers teach.…

What if we feel that CES or the Church is not emphasizing a certain doctrine enough, or even that they misunderstand it? In fact, there have been a few who feel the Brethren don’t understand a particular doctrine clearly.… [Elder Johnson called this a “canary in the coalmine” warning sign.]

Some of us have gospel hobbies that are taught in all of our classes, no matter what course we are teaching.…

We might teach our own opinion strongly and try forcefully to sway the students to side with us.…

Do we feel frustrated with others because they don’t seem to understand the gospel as well as we do?

https://www.nevillenevilleland.com/2019 ... ng-on.html

Peterson finds Pan’s conclusions agreeable:

I’m happy to pass on a few links to recent articles on the “Neville-Neville Land” site. Primarily because I agree with them and think that others need to see the weaknesses in Mr. Neville’s arguments specifically and, to some extent, in the Heartlander position more generally. I think that the two authors behind “Neville-Neville Land” have been doing very good work, and that what they have to say is of considerable value.

Anyway, here are four of their recent contributions:



“Jonathan Neville (finally) responds to the Neville Land blog”



“Elder Paul V. Johnson’s warning on the dangers of priestcraft” .....

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... -land.html

[_Doctor Scratch]

Yes--thank you, Lemmie. A number of the most aggressive accusations of "priestcraft" have come from Dr. Midgley. Midgley apparently sees nothing wrong with Peterson, Gee, and Smoot profiting from their connection to Interpreter/Cruise Lady, and yet Meldrum's stuff is somehow some huge problem? Take a look at this staggering hypocrisy:

So we should, I believe, both mourn for those who get taken in by those making a living in the LDS tour business, and those driven to peddle rubbish. But many of those caught in this web will probably remember little of what they were told a month after their feel-good experience other than, unfortunately, a deepened hostility towards to serious scholarship on issues like DNA and the Book of Mormon..

In addition, pushing mounds, and fake Michigan relics, phony DNA proofs and other bits of rubbish is game in which more than merely Rodney Meldrum are currently engaged. He is flanked by Wayne N. May, Bruce H. Porter, and others (who are often involved in the LDS travel business).

Know who else is in the LDS travel business? Smoot. DCP. Gee. Densley. Etc., etc.

[_Temp. Admin.]

I wholeheartedly concur with your assessment, Doctor Scratch: The hypocrisy is nothing short of staggering.

Although Kiwi57 comes in a close second, I don't think I've ever met anyone with less self-awareness than the Lounatic.