Mormons should be more worried about going to Hell than Atheists

[drumdude]

Monogamy hasn’t always been the standard. The fact that you see it as an advance is one way of looking at it. And on the whole, you may be right. But there are times and places/reasons where monogamy hasn’t been the standard and having multiple wives/partners hasn’t been condemned or though of as aberrant behavior.

I have no doubt that Mormons considered polygamy an advancement. The doctrine of celestial marriage was polygamy. It was the new and EVERLASTING covenant.

And Mormon God allowed it to be destroyed by the US government in 1890. Do you see how Mormon God set the entire thing up to look like a fraud?

The flame keepers of the Mormon polygamy Celestial Marriage movement are marrying 13 year old girls in West Texas. Their leader is in prison right now for child rape.

[MG 2.0]

This being the case, where would you suggest we go from here?

Regards,
MG

Let's start at the beginning and talk Adam, then. What do you believe in regard to the literal Garden of Eden and creation story in Genesis?

I am not interested in going down that road right now. WAY too time consuming and I’ve been spending a bit much more time here the last few days than I really should. It’s sort of a derail on the topic at hand anyway.

Another time?

I need to sort of wrap up my participation on this thread pretty quick. Other things are calling for my attention.

It’s sure easy to get sucked into these conversations. I’ve had fun though.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

The flame keepers of the Mormon polygamy Celestial Marriage movement are marrying 13 year old girls in West Texas. Their leader is in prison right now for child rape.

It all comes down to whether one believes in the restoration of the gospel and where the ‘keys of the kingdom’ reside.

drumdude and others, I need to get on to other responsibilities and occupations for the next little while. I’ll check back in at some point.

I’ve enjoyed the back and forth.

Regards,
MG

[doubtingthomas]

Ah, thank you.

Regards,
MG

and Clarissa Caroline Decker had a miscarriage at age 17, and most girls in the 19th century couldn't get pregnant at age 15.

Many studies have showed this to be the case for girls, and new research carried out by Herman-Giddens, and published by the American Academy of Pediatrics, has found the same for boys. The age of onset of biological adulthood continues to plunge. Consider the statistics provided by German researchers. They found that in 1860, the average age of the onset of puberty in girls was 16.6 years.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... hood-onset

Brigham Young and Joseph Smith married prepubescent children . That is wrong everywhere, even in Muslims countries. No culture in the world disputes the fact that it is wrong to marry prepubescent children.

[Lem]

MG quoted and linked FAIRmormons:

Joseph's percentage of wives in their teen years was less than the series percentage of teen wives in Kirtland, Nauvoo, or the 1850 U.S. census, even among men his own age.

That stat just cracks me up. Joseph's percentage OF MULTIPLE WIVES, taken illegally and behind his wife's back, was statistically within the average age. As though that's the issue with a man engaging in bigamy, adultery, and harassing underage girls.

From Fair again:

I count 6 over 45. What they mean by "older women" might mean something silly here, since Joseph was in his later 30s and anyone within a couple of years of him might be older than him, but not really older women as one might get from reading this Fair line, per se.

So, nope. Not "if anything" at all. He married younger girls at a higher rate than women who might be 8 plus years older than him. And yes, older women might have been attractive to him too. That can't possibly suggest "that motives other than sexual attraction drove these matches". That is silly nonsense.

Please, MG. You aren't doing yourself any favors by going to Fair.

Agreed. More than half Smith's wives were 26 or under. That statement about "older women" and "motives other than sexual attraction" is nonsense.

[Lem]

Alright. As long as I find reason to do so. Most of this thread has been interesting as we’ve shared our very different perspectives.

Thank you for your personal encouragement and invitation.

Regards,
MG

By the way, I’ve noticed that this is the type of response given when there is something posted that you would just as not ACTUALLY respond to or engage directly with your own thoughts and impressions.

Regards,
MG

Lol. Too funny. This is mentalgymnast talking to himself, about his OWN types of responses! I think maybe he meant this to be a private conversation with himself, but I'm glad he posted it. It is priceless.

[honorentheos]

Let's start at the beginning and talk Adam, then. What do you believe in regard to the literal Garden of Eden and creation story in Genesis?

I am not interested in going down that road right now. WAY too time consuming and I’ve been spending a bit much more time here the last few days than I really should. It’s sort of a derail on the topic at hand anyway.

Another time?

If you want.

I think it's the most relevant discussion to be had, myself. All of us agree no one normally lies to their spouse about having relations with other married or under aged persons and is a good person. The subjective nature of good relying here on common shared culture where fidelity and vulnerability/abuse of power fill the need to define the source for this shared sense of moral rightness.

So with Joseph Smith it comes down to why anyone should grant him an exception? And that discussion is the one I think should be had, which you left up to me to suggest starting. Since the Adam/creation story can be investigated scientifically while having direct implications for the accuracy of Smith's teaching and access to special divine knowledge, I think it would be a fairly easy and productive jump off point.

But that's cool. You don't want to go down that road and I wouldn't want to either in your position. Whenever you want to dig into these assumptions you have about creator gods and Mormonism as moral framework let me know. I'm around.

[Morley]

But that's cool. You don't want to go down that road and I wouldn't want to either in your position. Whenever you want to dig into these assumptions you have about creator gods and Mormonism as moral framework let me know. I'm around.

I don't blame Gymnast for deciding he needs to go and clean the refrigerator, either. I certainly wouldn't want to have to defend the beliefs he's assumed.

Here is the thing about MG. He believes he is fighting against wickedness when he visits this board. Anyone who rejected belief in the creator God he asserts as fact is corrupted. Nothing anyone says along these lines gets through to him because he is fighting a crusade and such arguments are unto him as devil's reciting scripture. He doesn't understand morality as a concept detached from his conservative Mormon-based Anglo-centric Fox News fed worldview. You are the enemy of God, so even if it looks like you are on the side of morality and Smith is the one who was immoral this simply can't be. So the truth must be that we lack understanding in that particular subject. But on the subject of there being said creator God and the corruption of those who have rejected this belief? Absolute certitude.

I think MG will accuse you of attempting psychoanalysis, but I think you've summed it up nicely.

Best wishes to you, MG, in holding your belief system together. I mean that sincerely. If you jumped ship now, your whole world might crumble.
.

[dastardly stem]

That stat just cracks me up. Joseph's percentage OF MULTIPLE WIVES, taken illegally and behind his wife's back, was statistically within the average age. As though that's the issue with a man engaging in bigamy, adultery, and harassing underage girls.

Agree. I keep looking at it wondering what FAIR thought they were arguing for. And I really doubt it's true anyway. I just have to quote it again:

oseph's percentage of wives in their teen years was less than the series percentage of teen wives in Kirtland, Nauvoo, or the 1850 U.S. census, even among men his own age.

So I just found this:

http://www.mormonism101.com/2014/12/clo ... ensus.html

Teenage marriage was not common in this 1850 census sample. Only 9.6% of the teenage girls were married (186 out of 1,928), mostly the 17- and 19-year-olds (157 of 186; Joseph Smith married no polygamous wives of 15 or 18 years old, so these ages are not included in the sample):



Of the six women aged 14 years, five married within their own age group. The older women married men who were mostly five to ten years older. Marriage to still older men was very rare (five out of 165 husbands):

So it's not true. At FAIR they didn't offer any sources for their claims. They just kinda stated them. And then MG quoted them, as if that meant anything. Defending polygamy gets pretty ridiculous.

From Fair again:

I count 6 over 45. What they mean by "older women" might mean something silly here, since Joseph was in his later 30s and anyone within a couple of years of him might be older than him, but not really older women as one might get from reading this Fair line, per se.

So, nope. Not "if anything" at all. He married younger girls at a higher rate than women who might be 8 plus years older than him. And yes, older women might have been attractive to him too. That can't possibly suggest "that motives other than sexual attraction drove these matches". That is silly nonsense.

Please, MG. You aren't doing yourself any favors by going to Fair.

Agreed. More than half Smith's wives were 26 or under. That statement about "older women" and "motives other than sexual attraction" is nonsense.

Yes. And with that, any pretense to argue something about Joseph didn't sleep with them all is about as empty a defense as one can get. No one knows. And, my god, the last three years of his life he married a woman a month, basically. He basically had a chance to sample each of them and not much more.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Three months after he fetched his wife and brought her to Nauvoo Willard Richards married sixteen-year-old Sarah Longstroth and fourteen-year-old Nanny Longstroth.



Willard and Jennetta Richards, his first wife, the one he brought to Nauvoo, were sealed a few months later. He also married the twenty-six-year-old wife of apostle Orson Hyde … while he was away on his mission.

He ended up marrying, according to Wiki, 14 women.

-_-

Both Sarah and Nanny started bearing children, ostensibly when they hit puberty. Willard was a devoted and close confidant of Joseph Smith, and ended up as 2nd counselor to BY. Where did he get the idea he should have sex with his teen brides?

- Doc