RFM v. Midnight Mormons—Debate

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MG 2.0
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Re: RFM v. Midnight Mormons—Debate

Post by MG 2.0 »

Marcus wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:58 am
MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:42 am
I think it's important that we ALL be VERY careful in regards to spiritually related experiences. Yes, I've seen the tears in people, other than LDS, as they share their feelings about God and truth, etc. I just hope that they are using their full mind AND their heart in making the decisions that they do after having experiences that seem to be spiritually driven.

I'm personally a bit skeptical about relying on emotion only. Too many mistakes have been made doing so in my observations.
Other than LDS? That is too funny. What a blind spot you have.
Have you not noticed that a whole bunch of folks all over the world get emotional and teary eyed as they express their inner most feelings in regards to their faith and/or strong beliefs about their core values? Or are you blind to that?

Regards,
MG
MG 2.0
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Re: RFM v. Midnight Mormons—Debate

Post by MG 2.0 »

Alphus and Omegus wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:01 am
MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:48 am


It ain't quite that simple Alphus. Is it for you?

And again, where did you end up? Everything is up for grabs? Everything is created by the mind of man? Where are you?

Regards,
MG
Why do you care what other people believe? Why do you need to be so relative in your thinking? What bearing does it have on your own thoughts? What's wrong with thinking humans aren't up to the task of knowing the origin of the universe?

Why do you crave pretend certainty so much? Have you disproved all other religions beyond Nelsonite Brighamism? And then after you disprove all extant religions, you'll have to disprove all past religions. Because how do you know that Zeus is not the real god? Maybe Dagon is. Or is it Yaldabaoth? What about Tlaloc?

And as for "up for grabs," you should realize that philosophy moved beyond this simplistic justification for morality thousands of years ago. I recommend reading up about Divine Command Theory to understand that if there are such things as "moral absolutes," then it means that if God exists, she is not all-powerful.

Lots of people going all the way back to a number of pre-Socratic philosophers, Aristotle, and number of ancient Stoics and Epicureans have also dispatched with ludicrous belief that morality must of necessity come from beliefs in invisible sky beings.
You didn't answer. What do YOU believe in regards to the metaphysical realm and/or a God's interaction with the world.

Are you a materialist?

Why do I care? Because I'm interested in what ex-Mormons replace their 'old faith' with. What is attractive and truthy enough that it pulls them and prods them to THAT 'truth'?

I promise I won't criticize you for your personal religious beliefs. I also promise that whatever religious beliefs you have will have no bearing on my thoughts, if that is also a concern for you. My thoughts are mine, although I've shared enough to provide some transparency.

Regards,
MG
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Re: RFM v. Midnight Mormons—Debate

Post by drumdude »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:23 am
Marcus wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:58 am

Other than LDS? That is too funny. What a blind spot you have.
Have you not noticed that a whole bunch of folks all over the world get emotional and teary eyed as they express their inner most feelings in regards to their faith and/or strong beliefs about their core values? Or are you blind to that?

Regards,
MG
The majority of spiritual experiences throughout history and in our current time have nothing to do with Mormonism.

If we’re going to use spiritual experiences as a guide then we should all be practicing Muslims since God has seen fit to give them the most witnesses and hasn’t troubled them with visions of the Angel Moroni.
Alphus and Omegus
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Re: RFM v. Midnight Mormons—Debate

Post by Alphus and Omegus »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:32 am
Why do I care? Because I'm interested in what ex-Mormons replace their 'old faith' with. What is attractive and truthy enough that it pulls them and prods them to THAT 'truth'?

I promise I won't criticize you for your personal religious beliefs. I also promise that whatever religious beliefs you have will have no bearing on my thoughts, if that is also a concern for you. My thoughts are mine, although I've shared enough to provide some transparency.
So your answer to the question "why do you care?" is "because I am interested."

That's not a transparent answer whatsoever.

Why does it matter what people replace Mormonism with? This board is also probably not very representative also of former Mormons. Most people who leave Mormonism do not participate in online post-Mormon communities. They just go on with their lives, either in some other faith or none at all. There are many more Mormons who decide to just stop going and don't even consider whether it's true or not. Others will go and join the Community of Christ or some other Latter-day denomination.

What people choose to replace Mormonism has no bearing whatsoever on whether it is true. They are separate questions.

The percentage of who does what is also immaterial, ultimately. People are free to choose what they want. More power to them, I say.

In my own case, I have a secular ethical model which is based on consideration of various philosophers, world religions, and my own agnosticism about where it began. It's actually a great place to be. I'm humble enough to accept that humans are just too small to understand the big questions. It means we need to value what we have now even more.
Last edited by Alphus and Omegus on Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
MG 2.0
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Re: RFM v. Midnight Mormons—Debate

Post by MG 2.0 »

drumdude wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:36 am
MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:23 am


Have you not noticed that a whole bunch of folks all over the world get emotional and teary eyed as they express their inner most feelings in regards to their faith and/or strong beliefs about their core values? Or are you blind to that?

Regards,
MG
The majority of spiritual experiences throughout history and in our current time have nothing to do with Mormonism.
Yup.
drumdude wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:36 am
If we’re going to use spiritual experiences as a guide then we should all be practicing Muslims since God has seen fit to give them the most witnesses and hasn’t troubled them with visions of the Angel Moroni.
You're on a run with if/then statements tonight aren't you? :)

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=154304&start=14

Regards,
MG
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canpakes
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Re: RFM v. Midnight Mormons—Debate

Post by canpakes »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:42 am
I'm personally a bit skeptical about relying on emotion only. Too many mistakes have been made doing so in my observations.

That is all that anyone has, to rely on. There are no proofs to verify one’s faith decision than can be independently tested.

As example:
I think the Spirit of God and/or the Holy Ghost speaks to our mind and our heart. So if you've sincerely prayed about and believe that you've received an undeniable witness to the truth of the Book of the Law of the Lord, then that is your path. How can someone else sway you from what you know to be true?

You’re in the midst of over 7 billion folks and only a fraction of one percent believe the same story that you do. And everyone’s relying on the same basic method of conclusion.
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canpakes
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Re: RFM v. Midnight Mormons—Debate

Post by canpakes »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:32 am
Because I'm interested in what ex-Mormons replace their 'old faith' with. What is attractive and truthy enough that it pulls them and prods them to THAT 'truth'?

MG, there are many decisions made in life that don’t require something discarded to be replaced by any particular or similar other thing.

One person’s needs do not necessarily hold true or important for any other person.
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Dwight
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Re: RFM v. Midnight Mormons—Debate

Post by Dwight »

Thanks Kish, you added and articulated something I have thought, but didn’t think about now. RFM talks about the missing meat. The business types have no meat to give, everything is milk. There used to kind of be some meat as I understand it in the High Priests as they would speculate on the deep doctrine. Then that slowly got correlated away and now they meet with the Elders. The church historian used to be a historian. Now it is a lawyer. Anyone who was more theological is threatening to the rest. What is the last revelation that isn’t just some policy change? “Let’s go shopping!” I’m a Mormon clearly wasn’t it. The November policy wasn’t it. I remember vividly how much Hinckley let me down, lying in national interviews then giving a wink to members at the next General Conference. When 9/11 happened there was a special broadcast and he basically tried to comfort and was like well we have to hope our government leaders do their best. Milk before meat, but eventually you get wise that there is no meat.
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Re: RFM v. Midnight Mormons—Debate

Post by Alphus and Omegus »

Dwight wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:59 am
Thanks Kish, you added and articulated something I have thought, but didn’t think about now. RFM talks about the missing meat. The business types have no meat to give, everything is milk. There used to kind of be some meat as I understand it in the High Priests as they would speculate on the deep doctrine. Then that slowly got correlated away and now they meet with the Elders. The church historian used to be a historian. Now it is a lawyer. Anyone who was more theological is threatening to the rest. What is the last revelation that isn’t just some policy change? “Let’s go shopping!” I’m a Mormon clearly wasn’t it. The November policy wasn’t it. I remember vividly how much Hinckley let me down, lying in national interviews then giving a wink to members at the next General Conference. When 9/11 happened there was a special broadcast and he basically tried to comfort and was like well we have to hope our government leaders do their best. Milk before meat, but eventually you get wise that there is no meat.
Not only is there no meat, the leaders actively are suspicious of you if you ask for it, or try to cook some for yourself and others. People are constantly urged to just pray, pay, and obey, rather than actually think about the ideas and values they were presented. It's the reason that there have never been any profound philosophers or writers who are Mormon. There are plenty of functional ones, because that's what's allowed.
Last edited by Alphus and Omegus on Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
drumdude
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Re: RFM v. Midnight Mormons—Debate

Post by drumdude »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:48 am
drumdude wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:36 am


The majority of spiritual experiences throughout history and in our current time have nothing to do with Mormonism.
Yup.
drumdude wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:36 am
If we’re going to use spiritual experiences as a guide then we should all be practicing Muslims since God has seen fit to give them the most witnesses and hasn’t troubled them with visions of the Angel Moroni.
You're on a run with if/then statements tonight aren't you? :)

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=154304&start=14

Regards,
MG
Arguments have consequences. Apologists like to ignore those consequences.

God is confirming Islam to billions of Muslims. Confirming Catholicism to billions of Catholics.

God could certainly reveal the Angel Moroni to these people but he chooses not to. He chooses to let Mormonism languish as a very obscure minor Christian cult.
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