RFM v. Midnight Mormons—Debate

[Dwight]

I think faith as a concept can be a beautiful thing. My issue is that faith is incomplete knowledge, but the facts and provable things should point in the same direction that the faith bridge is going to get you over. If god can’t give us the full truth but reveals to his prophet a redacted version then when you get more or all of the document the fuller version should still match up with the redacted version. Otherwise you know something fishy is going on and either the redacted version or the fuller version is not from the same source.

I can’t know that flipping the light switch will move electricity to light the light bulb when I am 3. I can still operate it. As I get older I can learn and understand the science and I can understand when it doesn’t work that there are logical explanations, blown fuse, power outage, burned out bulb. Some of the revelations from Joseph and others retrofit and change wildly with the times. The man recorded all sorts of important events, but plumb forgot to make any notation of when the Melchizedek Priesthood was restored, until his libertarian free for all of priesthood started to turn against him and he was losing his status as the ring leader. Suddenly he needed to backdate something that allowed him to be back on top. Then you maybe notice spiritual confirmation came at times that secularists can describe and why is it important for me to get the same feeling about the Book of Mormon as a movie or book that frankly is just an emotional tug.

[Kishkumen]

I think faith as a concept can be a beautiful thing. My issue is that faith is incomplete knowledge, but the facts and provable things should point in the same direction that the faith bridge is going to get you over. If god can’t give us the full truth but reveals to his prophet a redacted version then when you get more or all of the document the fuller version should still match up with the redacted version. Otherwise you know something fishy is going on and either the redacted version or the fuller version is not from the same source.

I can’t know that flipping the light switch will move electricity to light the light bulb when I am 3. I can still operate it. As I get older I can learn and understand the science and I can understand when it doesn’t work that there are logical explanations, blown fuse, power outage, burned out bulb. Some of the revelations from Joseph and others retrofit and change wildly with the times. The man recorded all sorts of important events, but plumb forgot to make any notation of when the Melchizedek Priesthood was restored, until his libertarian free for all of priesthood started to turn against him and he was losing his status as the ring leader. Suddenly he needed to backdate something that allowed him to be back on top. Then you maybe notice spiritual confirmation came at times that secularists can describe and why is it important for me to get the same feeling about the Book of Mormon as a movie or book that frankly is just an emotional tug.

A religion will always be, to a certain extent, a relic of the era that produced it. That's inevitable, and that should be OK. I don't think that LDS leaders necessarily know what to do with that situation because they are a bunch of amateurs. They are business guys and professionals who came up through the lay leadership ranks that required no training in anything but prayer and the Church Handbook of Instructions. They are out of their depth in everything but running board meetings and making financial decisions.

[Rivendale]

Speaking as just one person, from one person's experience, I would say that RFM's presentations over the years were extremely helpful as I worked to sort out questions that arose at the onset of my personal faith journey. A journey which, by the way, started when I discovered the original gospel topics essays.

And contrary to the Mopologetic fear mongering about inevitable atheistic nihilism, while I no longer believe that the church is what it claims to be, I am also (a) not a nihilist and (b) more full of hope for humanity and for my life than ever.

I love being alive. The world makes more sense to me now, and the goodness in it inspires me to be a better person and fills me with gratitude to be alive. RFM did not help me discover any of what I believe today, and I give him credit for sticking with "I don't know" where that is the best available answer.

Like RFM, I don't know what happens after we die, except that our loved ones will miss us, but I don't need an answer to post-life questions in order to have hope, spirituality or rich, meaningful experiences. Yes, it was scary for a while, having my world view upended, but that uncertainty and fear is part of growth, not part of a journey to nihilism. The Mopes should really stop resting on that argument. It's flimsy, and wrong.

That is good that you are traveling a path that brings you joy and happiness.

My concern is, however, is that for every one of you how many are there that are left in a vacuum of sorts that they never successfully navigate themselves out of? As a result they don’t find the same fulfillment that they may have had with a belief in God. I suppose it’s impossible to know. But nonetheless, that would be a concern.

I know that within my circle of friends and family it’s been kind of a mixed bag. If one can still find faith in God after having left the church, I think that can be good for many folks. Unfortunately a bunch of people seem to leave God in the rearview mirror. But if in individual situations that honestly works for them, that’s great.

Man is that he might have joy.

Regards,
MG

Utter nonsense. What do you replace Cancer with when it is removed from the body?

[MG 2.0]

Not.

Regards,
MG

Um, yes you did.

He may have presented truths along the way, but I didn't hear him teach correct principles in regards to the Godhead. You're looking for one thing, I'm seeing another.

I think we're quibbling a bit over semantics.

He didn't answer any of the three questions that I posed to Philo. And for a whole lot of people, those are important principles/doctrines to have an understanding of.

So, an empty suit.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

That is good that you are traveling a path that brings you joy and happiness.

My concern is, however, is that for every one of you how many are there that are left in a vacuum of sorts that they never successfully navigate themselves out of? As a result they don’t find the same fulfillment that they may have had with a belief in God. I suppose it’s impossible to know. But nonetheless, that would be a concern.

I know that within my circle of friends and family it’s been kind of a mixed bag. If one can still find faith in God after having left the church, I think that can be good for many folks. Unfortunately a bunch of people seem to leave God in the rearview mirror. But if in individual situations that honestly works for them, that’s great.

Man is that he might have joy.

Regards,
MG

Utter nonsense. What do you replace Cancer with when it is removed from the body?

Nothing. What do you replace your faith in God with when you've lost it?

JUST science? For a lot of folks, that just doesn't do it.

Regards,
MG

[Kishkumen]

He may have presented truths along the way, but I didn't hear him teach correct principles in regards to the Godhead. You're looking for one thing, I'm seeing another.

I think we're quibbling a bit over semantics.

He didn't answer any of the three questions that I posed to Philo. And for a whole lot of people, those are important principles/doctrines to have an understanding of.

So, an empty suit.

Regards,
MG

Really, MG. You are being stupid and passive aggressive. It is not his job or his "calling" to teach the things you are looking for. Or the things that Quackoo and Co. demand. He does what he does well, and the results are that he has reached a lot of people and helped a lot of people. If the LDS Church could not reach or touch them, that is the LDS Church's failing. Not RFM's. They are the empty suits, building great and spacious buildings while people literally starve physically and spiritually. It is a disgraceful situation.

[Res Ipsa]

Utter nonsense. What do you replace Cancer with when it is removed from the body?

Nothing. What do you replace your faith in God with when you've lost it?

JUST science? For a lot of folks, that just doesn't do it.

Regards,
MG

You don’t have to replace it with anything.

[Rivendale]

Utter nonsense. What do you replace Cancer with when it is removed from the body?

Nothing. What do you replace your faith in God with when you've lost it?

JUST science? For a lot of folks, that just doesn't do it.

Regards,
MG

Just science? Science isn't a belief system. Science is descriptive not prescriptive. People who need to believe in an unfalsifiable afterworld probably should. I can't imagine the pain and discomfort one of these need to believe people would suffer if they actually came to the conclusion this is all there is. They believe in belief.

[MG 2.0]

He may have presented truths along the way, but I didn't hear him teach correct principles in regards to the Godhead. You're looking for one thing, I'm seeing another.

I think we're quibbling a bit over semantics.

He didn't answer any of the three questions that I posed to Philo. And for a whole lot of people, those are important principles/doctrines to have an understanding of.

So, an empty suit.

Regards,
MG

Really, MG. You are being stupid and passive aggressive. It is not his job or his "calling" to teach the things you are looking for. Or the things that Quackoo and Co. demand. He does what he does well, and the results are that he has reached a lot of people and helped a lot of people. If the LDS Church could not reach or touch them, that is the LDS Church's failing. Not RFM's. They are the empty suits, building great and spacious buildings while people literally starve physically and spiritually. It is a disgraceful situation.

Sorry that you think that I am being passive aggressive. And of course, you are free to believe/think what you will about the GA's.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Nothing. What do you replace your faith in God with when you've lost it?

JUST science? For a lot of folks, that just doesn't do it.

Regards,
MG

Just science? Science isn't a belief system. Science is descriptive not prescriptive. People who need to believe in an unfalsifiable afterworld probably should. I can't imagine the pain and discomfort one of these need to believe people would suffer if they actually came to the conclusion this is all there is. They believe in belief.

They may also be humble enough to realize that there may be other ways to know God than through the senses that we normally experience the world through.

Regards,
MG