Atlanticmike wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:16 am
So let me see if I understand this correctly. You think, actually, a bunch of you guys think, the three guys that make up Midnight Mormons are "complete idiots" for acting and defending Mormonism exactly like you guys would've when you were in your twenties and still TBM? Gee whiz!!! RFM actually audio recorded himself teaching lessons when he was a young and dumb TBM preaching the gospel to other TBMs. But somehow now that you're not TBM and have reached a state of "wokeness" outside Mormonism, the defenders of Mormonism are stuck in the Stone age because a bunch of geriatric white men have podcast and use their platform to bash a religion they once held dear and defended no differently than the three young men we're talking about?
For my part, no, this is not correct. Sure, we were all dumb kids at one time, Mormon or otherwise. I'll cut the MM guys some slack for that---up to a point. For one thing, they're sorely pushing the boundary of "kids" anymore. They're reaching the age where they're grown men and ought to start acting like it.
I also don't fault them for being TBMs. Most of my family are either TBMs or quietly nuanced, but Mormon believers nonetheless. So no shade from me there.
But Kwaku, Cardon, and Brad are just plain mean. And they're mean in a way that damages people. They have no compunction about lying. They've accused at least three men of serious improprieties and/or sex crimes, on little to no evidence. They're willing to manipulate video and audio clips to make people look like they're saying things that they didn't say. None of that is ok, and, no, most of us did NOT do those things when we were Mormon. As a Mormon, I was smug and condescending, but I didn't accuse people of serious felonies and claim I was doing it to advance Mormonism.
I can't speak as much to the pretzel logic of apologetics, because it never interested me. But I think it's possible to be an apologist without being an asshole---Jim Bennett is a case-in-point. Most of his arguments are unpersuasive. (For example, if he justifies the Book of Abraham as a real translation due to the evolution of language over time, then that's just ridiculous. We have the Rosetta Stone now.)
But I think Bennett could make rational arguments on specific points, as he did in response to the CES Letter, that would give RFM a run for his money. Or at least be interesting to watch. Bennett can score some individual points so long as he ignores the totality of the CES Letter.
The MM trio literally do not understand what a rational argument is. Kwaku has actually said this on RFM's show: He doesn't believe reality is governed by predictable and replicable phenomena. His default assumption is that the weird and the illogical are more common and believable. That's just....dumb. And Kwaku's a college-educated man. He doesn't have much excuse.
Atlanticmike wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:16 am
Religion isn't about "truth", it's not about "facts". And by the way, sorry for assuming you are an atheist.
Apology accepted
I understand. Most Mormons do seem to lose all faith when they lose their Mormon faith. I feel fortunate that I didn't. As a Mormon, I experienced what I might call "the Spirit of God." I just ditched Mormonism, but kept God (albeit with far fewer specific claims as to what "God" might be).
And I agree it's not about facts. Faith is not rational. I don't look to God for history or science. So I think these debates are a little silly, but could be fruitful if they eventually result in a Mormonism that doesn't rely on understanding American history based on what gives you the warm fuzzies.
I also agree that some of the most fire-breathing Book-of-Mormon-thumpers wind up becoming the most fire-breathing anti-Mormons. All they've done is change what they breathe fire about. I don't have much respect for that. Looking back at what we did believe as Mormons ought to give us a little humility.
But my hands aren't clean just because I wasn't into apologetics. I was still smug and supercilious as a Mormon. I pitied the non-Mormons. And that's pretty assholish too. I would not say it's on the same moral level as destroying people with lies, however, and that's what the MM trio attempt to do.
If the church adopts that type of scorched-earth apologetics, where they "fair-game" former Mormons as enemies, then I fear the Mormon faith is in real trouble. The one thing we used to have going for us: People might have thought Mormons were weird and culty, but invariably they thought we were kind. If we lose that, I think we will have lost a "plain and precious truth" for real.