The distance between Christianity and the 4 Gospels

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
MG 2.0
God
Posts: 3628
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:45 pm

Re: The distance between Christianity and the 4 Gospels

Post by MG 2.0 »

honorentheos wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:27 pm

It can't be overstated what a moron you are for pushing this quack "science".
Done with you on this discussion.

Arrogant bastard.

Regards,
MG
honorentheos
God
Posts: 3762
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:15 am

Re: The distance between Christianity and the 4 Gospels

Post by honorentheos »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:28 pm
honorentheos wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:27 pm

It can't be overstated what a moron you are for pushing this quack "science".
Done with you on this discussion.

Arrogant bastard.

Regards,
MG
Good. Your bad argumentation is a waste of time and you can't filter rubbish arguments out of the "evidence" you push like bad street drugs to save your life.
User avatar
Res Ipsa
God
Posts: 9569
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:44 pm
Location: Playing Rabbits

Re: The distance between Christianity and the 4 Gospels

Post by Res Ipsa »

honorentheos wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:04 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:34 pm
By the way, in response to “intent” having to be shown before believing that Fine Tuning holds any water in as far as intelligence being at play, that’s just an easy way out from having to really look at all the evidence and seeing it for what it is. Reverse engineering can be done on a complex system, but that doesn’t explain how it got there. Especially when trying to explain the intricate coordination between individual systems and the greater whole to end up with something that works as it does.
MG, the irony here is the last two sentences of your comment demonstrate why demonstrating intention is needed to differentiate theological explanations for the universe from one defined by natural law alone.

Fine tuning is not an argument for proving God so much as an observation that the universe could have turned out differently given what science can tell us about it, and many of those alternatives would not have been conducive to human life. Reverse engineering the fact we exist back to the Big Bang and declaring our being here requires that some intelligence did it then demands that you show the intention of the intelligence. Your and my existence doesn't accomplish this. The universe selected for black holes and a slow, cold death a google years from now, too.

Intention is what differentiates theology from naturalism. It's fundamental to your position. So, you know, it's on you to demonstrate it.
After watching this presentation return and report.

https://youtu.be/r4sP1E1Jd_Y

There will be some here that won’t give James Tour much of a look since he is a ‘believer’, but be that as it may, you can’t say much against his accomplishments and credentials. It’s worth the time to follow some of his other presentations on YouTube.
Regards,
MG
Watched it. Then watched more, and it can be summed up in these bullets:

His credentials aren't relevant to his arguments. He makes synthetic nanotech "machines" in a lab, claims he doesn't understand how evolution works, declares "selection" doesn't happen without outside guidance while using catalysts in chemistry in his own professional work, demands those working on origins of life produce a fully evolved cell with DNA and all or they have to admit defeat right now and give up the field to God, and otherwise is viewed as a quack by the science community outside of his area of expertise - which origin of life is not.

So, yeah. My report: your video sucks and you should research those opposed to your sources so you can articulate the opposing argument before posting or quit the field because you aren't sincere.

Go spend time with your grandkids and quit trying to prove god by not looking at all the science but only the bits that quiet your doubts.
Thanks for watching and reporting so I didn’t have to waste brain cells on tired nonsense. I owe you one.
he/him
When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.

Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
honorentheos
God
Posts: 3762
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:15 am

Re: The distance between Christianity and the 4 Gospels

Post by honorentheos »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:27 pm
He may have been an outstanding scientist in the past, or may still be in some areas, but on this topic, he’s a crank.
He is in his own field, and very accomplished when it comes to nanotech and synthetic chemistry. He is also using that to make incredibly bad faith arguments against research into the origins of life that he markets to a congregation. Follow the money, as they say...
honorentheos
God
Posts: 3762
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:15 am

Re: The distance between Christianity and the 4 Gospels

Post by honorentheos »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:31 pm

Thanks for watching and reporting so I didn’t have to waste brain cells on tired nonsense. I owe you one.
I had a bunch of minis to paint and a D&D session to finish prepping for, so I flipped it on and then watched a debate between him and Lee Cronin, watched the video Rivendale linked to, watched some of Tour's 14 rebuttal videos, then that Dave dude's rebuttal video, then some stuff from Lee Cronin where he was not debating anyone but just talking about the state of the science. It was around 6-7 hours of listening while I kept my hands busy off and on the last couple of days. And honestly I don't begrudge the time. I like having interesting things playing on Youtube or a podcast while painting. I do think MG is a moron, though. I am not feeling charitable towards him given the arrogance he displayed coming on here and the clear lack of investigation he put into actually understanding the arguments Tour was making. Anyone who took even a remote bit of time to listen to what those who critique him had to say would realize his isn't a good faith position. A person can believe in God just fine and see that Tour is a quack when it comes to this topic. That he is a preacher with a congregation where he takes their money and time in exchange for easing their minds that creation-conflicting science is a conspiracy against god-fearing folks like them? Yeah...“F” him.

ETA: I wish to point out for MG's benefit that it was clear from just watching his video first that he wasn't making a rigorous argument but was pandering. I went on to listen to the discussion with Lee Cronin and himself to get a better sense of what he was arguing when pushed against. But that mainly showed that Tour was not engaging even another scientist in the science. When Cronin was describing experiments that showed organizing properties without life or DNA, Tour was incensed that Cronin thought this applied to the debate. He asserted that this wasn't an experiment directed at abiogenesis because it wasn't immediately going to produce a living cell with DNA and the whole kit. He attacked Cronin for doing work in a lab using synthesized organic compounds proving to Tour the experiment was contaminated by "intelligent design" via the scientists involved. It was...bizarrely scientifically ignorant argumentation and you could see Cronin stepping the debate back further and further to more and more basic first principles in an attempt to find a common scientific foundation from which to discuss the subject. That led me to the link from Rivendale by the guy named Dave which was ok, then Tour's rebuttals which was insanely overkill for responding to a Youtuber who he argued lacked a PhD so he couldn't be taken seriously (yeah, 14 videos to respond to someone he didn't think could be taken seriously.) Then Dave's response video or videos which were basically him saying, "Ok, you don't think my argument is good and I suffer from Dunning-Kruger? Here's a PhD actually working in the relevant field saying the same thing I did."
User avatar
Morley
God
Posts: 1560
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:17 pm
Location: detail from Alice Neel's 1980 self portrait

Re: The distance between Christianity and the 4 Gospels

Post by Morley »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:22 pm

We haven’t heard from Marcus and Morley yet, unless I’ve missed it.
Yes, you must have missed it, since I'm sure you would have responded otherwise.

These were my own responses:

Morley wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:39 pm
MG 2.0:

Two points.

1) I was referring to the dripping condescension involved in "return and report." This was my main suggestion; one that seemingly passed right through you.

2) But almost as important: A few weeks ago you were presenting a so-called expert who, in service to Donald Trump, had punched a demonstrator in the back of the head and then run away. You complained that some of us didn't give your guy a chance by reading him or listening to him--because, to your thinking, despite his character, he had excellent things to say. Did you give Professor Dave's videos any chance at all? Did you view them last night? You want people to set aside their biases and look at your materials, but you're not willing to do the same. You want some of us to return and report. Where's the reciprocation?

Morley wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:00 pm

You're unwilling to summarize what your own fellow is saying, yet you want to assign others to do so.



In reading James Tour, I did find it interesting that he's a believer in a literal Adam and Eve. So much for the science of DNA.
User avatar
Res Ipsa
God
Posts: 9569
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:44 pm
Location: Playing Rabbits

Re: The distance between Christianity and the 4 Gospels

Post by Res Ipsa »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:28 pm
honorentheos wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:27 pm

It can't be overstated what a moron you are for pushing this quack "science".
Done with you on this discussion.

Arrogant bastard.

Regards,
MG
LOL. At least he stuck the flounce.
he/him
When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.

Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
MG 2.0
God
Posts: 3628
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:45 pm

Re: The distance between Christianity and the 4 Gospels

Post by MG 2.0 »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:09 am
MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:28 pm


Done with you on this discussion.

Arrogant bastard.

Regards,
MG
LOL. At least he stuck the flounce.
Honor, I apologize for saying what I did. I may consider you somewhat arrogant, but you are not a bastard. That was beneath me to use that language and not fair to you.

Chances are if we actually knew each other in real life, we could even go out to lunch and enjoy each other’s company. I might even be able to convince you that I’m not quite the moron you think I am. 🙂

Anyways, thanks for the conversation. This particular topic is an important one as a LOT rides on it.

Regards,
MG
drumdude
God
Posts: 5219
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:29 am

Re: The distance between Christianity and the 4 Gospels

Post by drumdude »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:46 am
Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:09 am


LOL. At least he stuck the flounce.
Honor, I apologize for saying what I did. I may consider you somewhat arrogant, but you are not a bastard. That was beneath me to use that language and not fair to you.

Chances are if we actually knew each other in real life, we could even go out to lunch and enjoy each other’s company. I might even be able to convince you that I’m not quite the moron you think I am. 🙂

Anyways, thanks for the conversation. This particular topic is an important one as a LOT rides on it.

Regards,
MG
I'm astonished you can stay LDS knowing everything wrong with it.

There are plenty of ways to be Christian that don't involve mentally twisting your intellectual and moral integrity into a pretzel.
MG 2.0
God
Posts: 3628
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:45 pm

Re: The distance between Christianity and the 4 Gospels

Post by MG 2.0 »

drumdude wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:19 am
MG 2.0 wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:46 am


Honor, I apologize for saying what I did. I may consider you somewhat arrogant, but you are not a bastard. That was beneath me to use that language and not fair to you.

Chances are if we actually knew each other in real life, we could even go out to lunch and enjoy each other’s company. I might even be able to convince you that I’m not quite the moron you think I am. 🙂

Anyways, thanks for the conversation. This particular topic is an important one as a LOT rides on it.

Regards,
MG
I'm astonished you can stay LDS knowing everything wrong with it.

There are plenty of ways to be Christian that don't involve mentally twisting your intellectual and moral integrity into a pretzel.
The thing is, I don’t expect everything to be right with the church or it’s leaders. It is Jesus Christ and His mission/atonement/gospel that are primary. And you’re right, there are plenty of ways to be Christian. And I don’t fault anyone for taking a different path than mine. For a long while there were a lot of mental gymnastics that ultimately brought me to the place I’m at. Those workouts are not NEAR as strenuous as they once were thankfully.

A LOT of strength and conditioning exercises consistently practiced over time have brought me a fair degree of limberness and flexibility in the way I view the world, etc.

Things are much better than they once were. That’s why I try to have a certain degree of empathy for those that are going through something similar to what I did. It’s tough while you’re in the middle of it.

Regards,
MG
Post Reply