The distance between Christianity and the 4 Gospels

[dastardly stem]

MG, it's good to see that you have returned to the thread, because you left me in a state of suspense from a comment I made back on page 38:

viewtopic.php?p=2755334#p2755334

You addressed the last para of my comment, where I asked you to cite your source for a statement, though I really don't think (as I said a bit later viewtopic.php?p=2755361#p2755361 ) that your source supported your argument. Far from it, actually.

Anyway, to summarise, here are points that you left unchallenged. I'd be interested in seeing what you think.

1. We simply have no idea, and perhaps can never know, if this universe is optimal for us.
   We know it is sufficient, because we are here, but, I suggest, nothing more.
2. There's no need to work backwards from "we are here" through "we must be here for a reason" and "I don't know how or why" to "therefore god did it". We simply are here.
3. Your god, from the Bible, is an immoral or at least amoral monster.
4. If your god exists, he may be "pulling the strings" to hinder us, while simply pretending to help us. I don't think you can know which.
5. There's no need for me to try, as you suggest I must, to "discount the need for a creator" - you simply have not supplied convincing evidence, so no "trying" is needed.
6. Similarly for purposeful fine tuning - there are too many unknown unknowns to make it possible for us to be sure.

What a beautiful and concise summary, Malkie. Thanks for putting it together, as simple as it likely seemed for you. MG has a couple of big problems here.

[Res Ipsa]

MG, it's good to see that you have returned to the thread, because you left me in a state of suspense from a comment I made back on page 38:

viewtopic.php?p=2755334#p2755334

You addressed the last para of my comment, where I asked you to cite your source for a statement, though I really don't think (as I said a bit later viewtopic.php?p=2755361#p2755361 ) that your source supported your argument. Far from it, actually.

Anyway, to summarise, here are points that you left unchallenged. I'd be interested in seeing what you think.

1. We simply have no idea, and perhaps can never know, if this universe is optimal for us.
   We know it is sufficient, because we are here, but, I suggest, nothing more.
2. There's no need to work backwards from "we are here" through "we must be here for a reason" and "I don't know how or why" to "therefore god did it". We simply are here.
3. Your god, from the Bible, is an immoral or at least amoral monster.
4. If your god exists, he may be "pulling the strings" to hinder us, while simply pretending to help us. I don't think you can know which.
5. There's no need for me to try, as you suggest I must, to "discount the need for a creator" - you simply have not supplied convincing evidence, so no "trying" is needed.
6. Similarly for purposeful fine tuning - there are too many unknown unknowns to make it possible for us to be sure.

What a beautiful and concise summary, Malkie. Thanks for putting it together, as simple as it likely seemed for you. MG has a couple of big problems here.

Agreed. Well said. I'm not sure Pangloss does.

[MG 2.0]

But it is fun to look at the convoluted logic that is used to reduce everything down to some thing that can…well, actually can’t, be understood and/or comprehended in all of it’s beautiful complexity by the human mind.

Some many years ago I picked up a book called Zen Seeing, Zen Drawing that has had some influence on my thinking, amongst other things. The author, Frederick Franck, takes the reader through the process of recognizing how often we use symbols in the place of what is around us, failing to truly see the world as it is because the symbols of how we think it is stand in the way. The child who is asked to draw a face and immediately makes a circle, three dots, and an arc understands the symbology of a face. But their expression of it is not the thing as it is, merely something that conveys "face" in the same way a red octagon conveys, "STOP" without the need for letters. If one is content to engage the world as symbol only, well...

Then it is better for you that you cover
your nakedness and pass out of love’s
threshing-floor,
Into the seasonless world where you
shall laugh, but not all of your laughter,
and weep, but not all of your tears.

Imagine that your symbols are indeed reality, symbols formed and handed down from a conflicted tribe assured of their own greatness even as they bent the knee to other kings, other gods in shame, using the stories that had seeped into their own culture to patchwork an origin story and a singular angry God whose favor they could only regain by rejecting the world around them to turn back to Him alone...if only then He'd final come to elevate them again.

The story of Job, the oldest sections of which are the oldest content in the Hebrew scripture, says something different. But then this couldn't stand then, either, and the scribes added to it which, in doing, only really subtracted.

Go play with your grandchildren, MG.

Indeed, we see through a glass darkly. And the language to try and describe the infinite is less than adequate.

"Oh Lord God, deliver us from this prison, almost as it were, of paper, pen and ink, and of a crooked, broken, scattered and imperfect language."
Joseph Smith

The poets and psalmists come close, but nonetheless we are at a loss to describe an all powerful deity and creator of the universe. That being so, men have always tried to use words to define their existence and purpose. And also many have attempted to use mere words to try to explain away or reason out why there isn’t a God who created all things.

Thus, the excessive verbiage we find in threads such as this one.

And we’re ALL caught in the middle.

I find it interesting that you would invite me to play with my grandchildren. As though I need your advice/admonition to do so. Do you have grandkids? If so, you would know that it takes very little encouragement to play with and support them.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

[The CoJCoLDS] is for a certain subset of select humans. It’s not for everybody....

Too bad perfect God makes mostly imperfect children.

We manage to make choices on our own which result in a state of imperfection. Thank God for the principle of repentance and forgiveness. Not everyone chooses to fully repent and change, however. To some extent we are all broken and imperfect beings.

The CofJCofLDS is a church comprised of individuals who recognize this and their dependence on God for support and blessings.

That IS a select group. Not in an elitist way. In a humble, seeking God way. You may have misinterpreted what I was attempting to say.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

MG, it's good to see that you have returned to the thread, because you left me in a state of suspense from a comment I made back on page 38:

viewtopic.php?p=2755334#p2755334

You addressed the last para of my comment, where I asked you to cite your source for a statement, though I really don't think (as I said a bit later viewtopic.php?p=2755361#p2755361 ) that your source supported your argument. Far from it, actually.

Anyway, to summarise, here are points that you left unchallenged. I'd be interested in seeing what you think.

1. We simply have no idea, and perhaps can never know, if this universe is optimal for us.
   We know it is sufficient, because we are here, but, I suggest, nothing more.

And, of course, you are free to take this point of view.

[*]There's no need to work backwards from "we are here" through "we must be here for a reason" and "I don't know how or why" to "therefore god did it". We simply are here.

Again, this is your view, and you are free to entertain it.

[*]Your god, from the Bible, is an immoral or at least amoral monster.

Your interpretation of that which is contained in the Old Testament is not unwarranted. I’d question the Old Testament as being an accurate representation of God, however.

[*]If your god exists, he may be "pulling the strings" to hinder us, while simply pretending to help us. I don't think you can know which.

In an absolutist sense, of course you’re right. Otherwise how could you in good faith make this statement? I choose to believe in a creator God who loves and respects the individuality and agency of each of His children. So I trust that he will not do anything to breach that trust. God is a God of love/justice/mercy. I think He has a pretty dang good understanding of how to judge us and bring us along, according to our will, to give us all we desire to have.

[*]There's no need for me to try, as you suggest I must, to "discount the need for a creator" - you simply have not supplied convincing evidence, so no "trying" is needed.

malkie, you are FREE to choose your disbelief.

[*]Similarly for purposeful fine tuning - there are too many unknown unknowns to make it possible for us to be sure.

There’s enough there to see the hand of an intelligent, very intelligent, creator. The problem I think we all have, including the religious believers, is that we try to bring God down to our level and our understanding. How silly.

God is BIG.

malkie, I don’t fault you for reasoning away a creator. That is your right. That is your choice. And if it truly makes you happy, well then, that’s something, right?

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

[The CofJCofLDS is a church] That IS a select group. Not in an elitist way.... You may have misinterpreted what I was attempting to say.

No, you are not being misinterpreted.

[The CoJCoLDS] is for a certain subset of select humans. It’s not for everybody....

The phrase "select humans" contains considerable condescension, and the phrase "not for everybody" communicates disdain. There's no question about that. It's an unfortunate look for the god story you are pushing, reinforcing malkie's point about this looking like a belief in an immoral or amoral being as contradictions have to be explained away.

[MG 2.0]

Wow. Pigeon holing, aren’t we?

I’m enjoying the conversation. Let me make a prognostication. At the end of the day you will be no closer to resolving anything.

But it is fun to look at the convoluted logic that is used to reduce everything down to some thing that can…well, actually can’t, be understood and/or comprehended in all of it’s beautiful complexity by the human mind.

As a mental exercise, it is worthwhile, I suppose. One thing seems to be true. When you’re inside the system it’s a bit difficult to try and step outside and explain things. A lot of guesswork. Sort of like trying to step outside the human ‘mind’ and explaining the mass of gray matter that is the root/cause of being able to ask the questions in the first place.

The created trying to step outside of the system of creation and trying to fully explain it.

Anyway, no response expected. Just want to acknowledge the interesting twist the conversation has taken. Good stuff.

Regards,
MG

Likewise, at the end of the day I don't believe that you will be any closer to convincing anyone of your evidence-free arguments.

You seem to assume that, although you are just as much "inside the system" as anyone else is, you can explain what others cannot. By invoking (once again) the idea that we are created you are not actually explaining anything, simply adding another layer of complexity that needs to be explained.

At the end of the day I think we must each make a decision as to where we are going to go for understanding. And the truth is, mankind doesn’t seem to be able to reach ultimate truth on their own. The evidence is all around us.

If there is Truth to be had I’m of the opinion that it has to be revealed by God. And the trick is, obviously, to know His voice. Especially with SO MANY competing voices to be heard.

Those in these parts included.

Not an easy task. And yet…

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

[The CofJCofLDS is a church] That IS a select group. Not in an elitist way.... You may have misinterpreted what I was attempting to say.

No, you are not being misinterpreted.

[The CoJCoLDS] is for a certain subset of select humans. It’s not for everybody....

The phrase "select humans" contains considerable condescension, and the phrase "not for everybody" communicates disdain. There's no question about that. It's an unfortunate look for the god story you are pushing, reinforcing malkie's point about this looking like a belief in an immoral or amoral being as contradictions have to be explained away.

You can have your say. I have no response to you that you would deem acceptable.

Regards,
MG

[IHAQ]

I choose to believe in a creator God who loves and respects the individuality and agency of each of His children. So I trust that he will not do anything to breach that trust. God is a God of love/justice/mercy. I think He has a pretty dang good understanding of how to judge us and bring us along, according to our will, to give us all we desire to have.

Regards,
MG

Is MG’s God as he describes?

21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... 5?lang=eng

Hmmm….

7 Nevertheless I went forth, and as I came near unto the house of Laban I beheld a man, and he had fallen to the earth before me, for he was adrunken with wine.
8 And when I came to him I found that it was Laban.
9 And I beheld his asword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel.
10 And it came to pass that I was aconstrained by the Spirit that I should kill Laban; but I said in my heart: Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him.
11 And the Spirit said unto me again: Behold the aLord hath bdelivered him into thy hands. Yea, and I also knew that he had sought to take away mine own life; yea, and he would not hearken unto the commandments of the Lord; and he also had ctaken away our property.
12 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands;

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... 4?lang=eng

Hmmm…

15 And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was apoured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the bnations and kindreds of the earth.
16 And as there began to be awars and rumors of wars among all the nations which belonged to the mother of abominations, the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold, the wrath of God is upon the mother of harlots; and behold, thou seest all these things—
17 And when the aday cometh that the bwrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the cwork of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his dcovenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... 4?lang=eng

Hmmm…

[Marcus]

No, you are not being misinterpreted.

The phrase "select humans" contains considerable condescension, and the phrase "not for everybody" communicates disdain. There's no question about that. It's an unfortunate look for the god story you are pushing, reinforcing malkie's point about this looking like a belief in an immoral or amoral being as contradictions have to be explained away.

You can have your say. I have no response to you that you would deem acceptable.

Regards,
MG

No worries, your position comes through loud and clear.

Apropos of that, I'm currently listening to a podcast where a body language person was explaining a concept, and they used this analogy. What perfect timing.

"jesus loves you, yes. But I'm his favorite....."