The distance between Christianity and the 4 Gospels

[Morley]

You might be able to think of some examples. People with mental disabilities that make it difficult for them to make fully informed decisions, etc.

You went from upper case PERFECT to lower case maybe-not-so-perfect. And a "maybe not so perfect" ability to choose, or not to choose, a creator god proves Intelligent Design how?

[Morley]

Nonetheless, for the most part, we have a choice to believe in and worship a creator God or higher power than ourselves.

No, we don't. I'm unable to chose to believe in the "creator God" you outline.

[MG 2.0]

I have the advantage of not needing to introduce an outside agent to do the tuning.

What are some reasons this is an advantage?

If God is the architect there are very few, if any, of your far fetched probabilities and adjoining coordinations between values that need to be taken under consideration. You’re having to deal in guesswork and ‘what if’s’ just as much or more than defaulting to a creator that knows all of the constants and values necessary to create a Goldilocks universe.

I know that trying to discount the need for a creator seems to be the driving force for non believers. The question is WHY?

What is it that seems to be so repulsive and/or distasteful in having a hope/faith that an all powerful and knowledgeable God is pulling the strings?

Honestly, I’ve never been able to get that. Even during the time that I flirted with agnosticism I couldn’t quite ‘get there’ because I found that it was highly unlikely that a universe would be as finely tuned as it is without PURPOSE. It just didn’t make sense to me.

Of course the downside to this was knowing that if there was purpose and meaning beyond that which was in the imagination of man, that meant I would need to pay attention and try and determine what that purpose was/is. And if that purpose/plan included having to obey a higher law, that was going to involve time, commitment and sacrifice.

That’s a hard road to go down for anyone.

Choosing belief in a higher power beyond our own isn’t necessarily the comfortable way to point one’s directional compass. Is this NOT part of the equation in answer to my questions asked in this post?

It is interesting that it was the Fine Tuned Universe that Joseph Smith observed before him that was one of the reasons which brought him to the grove in order seek greater light and knowledge from his maker.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Nonetheless, for the most part, we have a choice to believe in and worship a creator God or higher power than ourselves.

No, we don't. I'm unable to chose to believe in the "creator God" you outline.

Were you at any time in your life able to do so?

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

You might be able to think of some examples. People with mental disabilities that make it difficult for them to make fully informed decisions, etc.

You went from upper case PERFECT to lower case maybe-not-so-perfect. And a "maybe not so perfect" ability to choose, or not to choose, a creator god proves Intelligent Design how?

Perfect in the sense that God may be seen as hidden, or not.

Regards,
MG

[Res Ipsa]

OK, MG, you’ve made some logical leaps that I can’t follow. Exactly what are you claiming is “fine tuned” that leads to this being the best of all possible works in terms of choice to believe or not believe in a Supreme being off some type?

[Jersey Girl]

Nonetheless, for the most part, we have a choice to believe in and worship a creator God or higher power than ourselves.

No, we don't. I'm unable to chose to believe in the "creator God" you outline.

We don't have a choice to believe. If we believe, we have a choice to follow.

[Morley]

No, we don't. I'm unable to choose to believe in the "creator God" you outline.

Were you at any time in your life able to do so?

No. The God that you personally talk about is ridiculous.

Belief was never a choice I made. As for most people, my beliefs were informed by tradition, education, and experience.

Most of humanity's beliefs aren't chosen. Do you really think they are?

[Morley]

No, we don't. I'm unable to chose to believe in the "creator God" you outline.

We don't have a choice to believe. If we believe, we have a choice to follow.

I like this, Jersey.

[malkie]

I have the advantage of not needing to introduce an outside agent to do the tuning.

What are some reasons this is an advantage?

If God is the architect there are very few, if any, of your far fetched probabilities and adjoining coordinations between values that need to be taken under consideration. You’re having to deal in guesswork and ‘what if’s’ just as much or more than defaulting to a creator that knows all of the constants and values necessary to create a Goldilocks universe.

I know that trying to discount the need for a creator seems to be the driving force for non believers. The question is WHY?

What is it that seems to be so repulsive and/or distasteful in having a hope/faith that an all powerful and knowledgeable God is pulling the strings?

Honestly, I’ve never been able to get that. Even during the time that I flirted with agnosticism I couldn’t quite ‘get there’ because I found that it was highly unlikely that a universe would be as finely tuned as it is without PURPOSE. It just didn’t make sense to me.

Of course the downside to this was knowing that if there was purpose and meaning beyond that which was in the imagination of man, that meant I would need to pay attention and try and determine what that purpose was/is. And if that purpose/plan included having to obey a higher law, that was going to involve time, commitment and sacrifice.

That’s a hard road to go down for anyone.

Choosing belief in a higher power beyond our own isn’t necessarily the comfortable way to point one’s directional compass. Is this NOT part of the equation in answer to my questions asked in this post?

It is interesting that it was the Fine Tuned Universe that Joseph Smith observed before him that was one of the reasons which brought him to the grove in order seek greater light and knowledge from his maker.

Regards,
MG

The "advantage" is that the default, in the absence of convincing evidence to the contrary, is that there is no god/external agent, and no need for one. I'm perfectly comfortable with that idea.

I don't have to deal in guesswork and ‘what if’s’ because there is no need to believe that we are in a Goldilocks universe - I thought I made that clear. I'm not proposing to solve the problem - I know I cannot, but I don't see any purpose in imagining that some being has done so - back to "initial conditions can take care of that". We simply have no idea, and perhaps can never know, if this universe is optimal for us.

I don't think there's any need to work backwards from "we are here" through "we must be here for a reason" and "I don't know how or why" to "therefore god did it".

The god you propose as the way to point one’s directional compass is, by the words of his own holy book, an immoral or at least amoral monster, so I see no benefit in trying to force myself to give him credit for a moral code that is worth following.

For all you know, we could have greater potential than your all powerful and knowledgeable God allows us to express, and he is pulling the strings to hold us back, in the guise of helping us to progress. Can you be sure that that is not the case? Remember, you may not be able to trust any answers he give to your questions, because his ways are not your ways, and you don't know his motives.

I'm not trying to "discount the need for a creator" - there's no trying involved. You keep saying "if god exists", but you haven't given me any reason, other than wishful thinking, to believe that he/she/it does exist. Ditto the idea of a purposeful fine tuning.

Can you cite your source for saying that "... the Fine Tuned Universe that Joseph Smith observed before him that was one of the reasons which brought him to the grove ..."? I'm afraid I can't keep the various versions of the FV straight in my mind.