Have you been blessed by leaving the church?

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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Have you been blessed by leaving the church?

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:19 am
That last...as far back as I can remember, I've been bonded with the natural world. I think I know why and I don't think it had anything to do with religious beliefs. I would like to hear more about what you think prevented you from making that connection as a Mormon if you would like to share it here or in some other area of this board that might be more suitable.
You’ll have to share why it is you feel bonded to the natural world - I think it’s topical to this thread because I believe my leaving the Church opened my eyes to the fragility of this one and only home for complex life as we know it to exist right now. I don’t think it’s a derail.

So, from my experience growing up Mormon they have, of course, an entitled approach to the earth, the land specifically, and that mindset is scripturally founded along with innumerable lectures confirming the earth is ‘for man’s use’. For example:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... h?lang=eng

It seems innocuous enough, but it incubated a mindset that landed us where we’re at today [note, this isn’t a uniquely Mormon issue, but I’m just talking it through from my Mormon experience] . This mindset can be anywhere from laughing at recycling, to throwing away toxic materials without a thought, to gobbling up land for the next subdivision, to treating the world and its resouces that are for man to be used ‘by the sweat of his brow’ to do as he pleases during his mortal probation. Why? Because the earth will be glassed with fire anyway when it takes on its celestial glory. This has created a weird relationship to the natural world where it’s a political issue right down to the individual, and many Mormons treat the world as a disposable commodity since it exists to be used by man, anyway. And it’ll be transformed or whatever into a giant glass ball some day, so chill out on me dumping used motor oil in the garbage or on the ground or down the drain, lady. This mindset extends to virtually every aspect between the Mormon man and the world:

- we get the water for my lawn, “F” those Liberals and “F” the bird habitat that relies on this water

- we need large single-family dwellings, “F” this 30-acre parcel and the sage grouse that lived here

- I’ll just dump all this industrial sludge into this body of water because it’s too expensive to make inert or haul to the dump, the fish will be fine, stop crying Libs

- *thousands more examples of bad stewardship*

It’ll never stop because the Mormon man’s relationship to the natural world is transactional and the world is a commodity. Avarice within Mormonism is common, and it comes at the expense of the earth’s air, land, water, and animals. Anything that gets in the way of ‘man pursuing happiness by the sweat of his own brow’ is basically Satanic. Also, make a lot of little consumers, too. Because god, and bodies, and mortal probations, and it’s their turn to work by the sweat of their brow for a new box in a new subdivision with lawns and trucks and whatnot ad infinitum.

When I left the Church I realized that the eternal perspective of our reality wasn’t connected to a Mormon larp, at all, but rather we’re a species of hominid, and we’re bound to the earth with billions of life forms that are undergoing a man-made extinction event. We’re industrializing the natural world, and because I have a built-in bias toward humans I can’t pretend all will be healed or restored or transfigured when Jesus comes back, so it’s up to us to treat the natural world with respect by not consuming it to death, and hopefully we as a species can stick around for a while.

This led me to a more mindful relationship with the earth where I think about my ethos often enough that I try to live in such a way where if my behavior were replicated across the board with humans, how would that affect the larger world? This one drop of rain does take responsibility for the flood, and is trying to be better about its role on the larger picture. This was born out of my apostasy because I realized the earth is it, we’re destroying it, and the only savior for humanity and the world in the most literal sense is us. That said, no one is perfect nor are they perfectly in harmony with nature, and we’re all in different head spaces so there’s going to be varying degrees of commitment to being in tune with the world. I ain’t judging, I’m just hoping more and more peopke will move to a balanced out place through persuasion and reason.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
Analytics
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Re: Have you been blessed by leaving the church?

Post by Analytics »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:25 am
drumdude wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:29 pm
I've been watching recent stake conferences on youtube. There's not really anything noteworthy in them, unfortunately. Most of the speakers at the end of the meeting, the highest priesthood holders, have only one thing to say. That being in the church offers unique blessings that you can get no other way.

Is this true for you who have left Mormonism? Have you lost your blessings? Has your life gotten harder, has the joy been removed?
51 looks so far. No comments. Interesting.

Regards,
MG
Given the interest on this thread and that debate Saturday night where those kids seemed to honestly believe that leaving the Church leads to bad things happening in life, I’ll answer the question. I’m uneasy about this, because my life could be a cover story of Prosperity Atheism magazine, but that isn’t the message I want to convey. I wouldn’t say I’ve been “blessed” by leaving the church, but my life has in fact gotten much better.

At the age of 10, I was diagnosed with Juvenile Rheumatoid Arthritis, but based upon the pattern of joint damage in the x-rays, the diagnosis was updated to Ankylosing Spondylitis. The disease caused severe inflammation, joint damage, and pain. Thankfully, the joint damage is just in my hips, knees, shoulders, and elbows, but not in my back. Thank God (or Satan or whatever divine being you’d like), I’ve always been able to stand up straight.

When I turned 19 I disclosed this to the Church, and in their infinite wisdom and inspiration they called me to serve in Argentina Buenos Aires South. My knees were in excruciating pain as I walked around Argentina. Whenever we were invited into a house to sit down and talk to people, the relief of the pain from sitting was so intense I’d often fall asleep in the middle of the discussion. More often than not, this would happen several times a day. I had multiple priesthood blessings of course, but they didn’t help.

After a year, the arthritis got progressively worse to the point where I literally couldn’t walk. At all. At that point they sent me back to the states where I spent a couple months at home receiving proper medical care, and was then reassigned to finish my mission in Thatcher Arizona and El Paso Texas in areas where the missionaries had cars.

Soon after I left the Church the biological drug Remicade was released, and this turned out to be very effective for me. It was outrageously expensive, but effective.

Since leaving the Church:

1- I’ve completely recovered from the Ankylosing Spondylitis and am healthy and completely drug free. I still have some residual joint damage, but the pain and disease progression are gone. This wasn’t supposed to happen—I was supposed to be taking outrageously expensive biological medications until I died. But I’m healthier now at 52 than I’ve ever been in my entire life. Ever.

2- My annual income has increased by a factor of ten, allowing me to do things like send my daughter to a liberal arts college and pay for the whole thing, allowing her to enter grownup life with a college degree and no debt.

3- I’ve become comfortable in my own skin and dealing with reality as it is. It was demeaning to my soul to try to have faith in things that I knew deep down were silly. It was demeaning to show religious deference to an uninspired hierarchy. It hurt my spirit. Being the captain of my own soul and approaching life as an adult with intellectual integrity is exhilarating.

4- My wife left the Church with me, and our relationship has dramatically improved.

5- I have several friendships with people I like and respect, and they like and respect me too.

6- To top it all off, the Royals won the World Series, and the Chiefs won the Super Bowl.

What’s clear to me is that everybody is subject to good luck and bad luck, and the only thing we have some control over is the strategy we formulate for our own lives, and the tactical decisions we make for how we respond to what life throws at us.

I would much rather be me now than me as I was when I was a Mormon. I would much rather emulate my life after people who are engaged with reality such as Steven Pinker, Yuval Noah Harari, Sean Carroll, and Richard Dawkins than people like Russell Nelson, Dallin Oaks, or Jeffrey Holland. The former group is not only much more in tune with reality, they also have better ethical systems. They are happier, more inspirational, and more influential. And most importantly, they have infinitely more intellectual integrity.

I’m sure there are people out there like Cardon Ellis who can function better with an imaginary father giving them purpose, guiding their life, and assuring them everything turns out rosy in the end. If somebody really needs that to function, then let them have it. It reminds me of somebody I once saw on TikTok who made the same argument about drugs and all the lives that meth has actually saved—how many people would have committed suicide without it? If that’s what somebody needs, I’ll try to have empathy and not judge. But it seems better not to become addicted to such things in the first place.

In any case, for me and my house, we choose reality.
MG 2.0
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Re: Have you been blessed by leaving the church?

Post by MG 2.0 »

Analytics wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:12 pm

In any case, for me and my house, we choose reality.
That has always been my credo also. Isn’t it interesting how different people experience reality in different ways? That’s what makes this world so varied and diverse. I wouldn’t have it any other way.

What’s kind of crazy is that if a creator God (assuming he exists) was to reveal himself in a literalistic sort of way, the world would be a lot less interesting. Personally, I think it’s meant to be that way. For one thing, it gives you, Analytics, the chance/opportunity to take the path you’ve chosen without any observable strings attached.

A ‘hidden God’, or at least not fully known God, gives people of all stripes and personalities the free will to ‘choose this day whom they will serve’.

Thank you for your thoughts. A life story of grit and determination against the odds. Good stuff.

Regards,
MG
Last edited by MG 2.0 on Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Marcus
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Re: Have you been blessed by leaving the church?

Post by Marcus »

Analytics wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:14 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:08 pm


Now if we can just get China, India, South Africa, and others on board…

Not meaning to derail. We can leave it right there. Just sayin’ that the track record for humankind stepping up and being ‘saviors’ in regards to environmental matters hasn’t been stellar.

Regards,
MG
You really ought to read Enlightenment Now: The Case for Reason, Science, Humanism, and Progress by Steven Pinker. Things aren't perfect, but they are getting better and science is leading the way.
Someone recommended that to me but I had forgotten, your reminder is appreciated. From his site
Steven Pinker urges us to step back from the gory headlines and prophecies of doom, which play to our psychological biases. Instead, follow the data: In 75 jaw-dropping graphs, Pinker shows that life, health, prosperity, safety, peace, knowledge, and happiness are on the rise, not just in the West, but worldwide. This progress is not the result of some cosmic force. It is a gift of the Enlightenment: the conviction that reason and science can enhance human flourishing.

Chap
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Re: Have you been blessed by leaving the church?

Post by Chap »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:29 pm
A ‘hidden God’, or at least not fully known God, gives people of all stripes and personalities the free will to ‘choose this day whom they will serve’.
But. If something is 'hidden', how can one be said to 'choose to serve it'? The fact that 'it' is 'hidden' (if that means anything) entails that you cannot meaningfully be said to have chosen to serve it, since the thing that one decides to serve is completely unspecified. I mean , if I say 'I have decided to serve Boojum', but I am unable to say what and where 'Boojum' is, because 'Boojum' is 'hidden', my statement tells you nothing.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
Marcus
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Re: Have you been blessed by leaving the church?

Post by Marcus »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:29 pm

What’s kind of crazy is that if a creator God (assuming he exists) was to reveal himself in a literalistic sort of way, the world would be a lot less interesting. Personally, I think it’s meant to be that way. For one thing, it gives you, Analytics, the chance/opportunity to take the path you’ve chosen without any observable strings attached.

A ‘hidden God’, or at least not fully known God, gives people of all stripes and personalities the free will to ‘choose this day whom they will serve’.
What's kind of even more crazy is that if an actual supreme being were to look in on you, they would notice you take every opportunity to be sneakily unkind to people you respond to. Unfortunately for you, your strings that somehow require you to look down on anyone not in your religion are completely obvious to everyone else, no matter how you try to dress it up. I pity you. What a hurtful way to have to live.

Analytics story was inspiring, your response was mean-spirited.
mg wrote: Time will tell I suppose as to whether or not some of the largest world players will jump on board with those that are in Pinker’s boat of gradual enlightenment and progress.

Recent events seem to show this is unlikely. At least for the indefinite future.
Let me guess. When you are asked for details, you will hem and haw, and then ask others to answer the question for you. Get some new material. Or maybe just stop thinking your sneaky attempts at put-downs do anything but make you look pathetic.
MG 2.0
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Re: Have you been blessed by leaving the church?

Post by MG 2.0 »

Chap wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:41 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:29 pm
A ‘hidden God’, or at least not fully known God, gives people of all stripes and personalities the free will to ‘choose this day whom they will serve’.
But. If something is 'hidden', how can one be said to 'choose to serve it'? The fact that 'it' is 'hidden' (if that means anything) entails that you cannot meaningfully be said to have chosen to serve it, since the thing that one decides to serve is completely unspecified. I mean , if I say 'I have decided to serve Boojum', but I am unable to say what and where 'Boojum' is, because 'Boojum' is 'hidden', my statement tells you nothing.
You make a good point. I would have to say that I’m more than likely to put more faith in a creator God, in which there is REASON to believe, than in Boojum or the spaghetti monster god. 😄

But that’s a discussion that’s been had ad nauseam. My point is that we are all free to choose our own adventure. I can choose to believe in God in who’s image I am created, and you, Analytics and others can choose to disbelieve in that god. The world exists…as it is… so that both, and other paths, can be chosen without any observable strings attached.

That’s all.

Serving a God that remains somewhat hidden does require faith. That is a surety.

I’m happy that we live in a day where, if one chooses, one may look at the world and the cosmos through both a spiritual lens and a scientific lens to see God’s handiwork. But that’s me…and a whole bunch of others. Your mileage may vary.

Regards,
MG
MG 2.0
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Re: Have you been blessed by leaving the church?

Post by MG 2.0 »

Marcus wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:50 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:29 pm

What’s kind of crazy is that if a creator God (assuming he exists) was to reveal himself in a literalistic sort of way, the world would be a lot less interesting. Personally, I think it’s meant to be that way. For one thing, it gives you, Analytics, the chance/opportunity to take the path you’ve chosen without any observable strings attached.

A ‘hidden God’, or at least not fully known God, gives people of all stripes and personalities the free will to ‘choose this day whom they will serve’.
What's kind of even more crazy is that if an actual supreme being were to look in on you, they would notice you take every opportunity to be sneakily unkind to people you respond to. Unfortunately for you, your strings that somehow require you to look down on anyone not in your religion are completely obvious to everyone else, no matter how you try to dress it up. I pity you. What a hurtful way to have to live.

Analytics story was inspiring, your response was mean-spirited.
mg wrote: Time will tell I suppose as to whether or not some of the largest world players will jump on board with those that are in Pinker’s boat of gradual enlightenment and progress.

Recent events seem to show this is unlikely. At least for the indefinite future.
Let me guess. When you are asked for details, you will hem and haw, and then ask others to answer the question for you. Get some new material. Or maybe just stop thinking your sneaky attempts at put-downs do anything but make you look pathetic.
I read your post, but will not respond. Have a nice day.

Regards,
MG
Marcus
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Re: Have you been blessed by leaving the church?

Post by Marcus »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:58 pm
Marcus wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:50 pm

What's kind of even more crazy is that if an actual supreme being were to look in on you, they would notice you take every opportunity to be sneakily unkind to people you respond to. Unfortunately for you, your strings that somehow require you to look down on anyone not in your religion are completely obvious to everyone else, no matter how you try to dress it up. I pity you. What a hurtful way to have to live.

Analytics story was inspiring, your response was mean-spirited.


Let me guess. When you are asked for details, you will hem and haw, and then ask others to answer the question for you. Get some new material. Or maybe just stop thinking your sneaky attempts at put-downs do anything but make you look pathetic.
I read your post, but will not respond. Have a nice day.

Regards,
MG
:lol: that is a blessing indeed. I'm glad you read it, maybe it will sink in.
Marcus
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Re: Have you been blessed by leaving the church?

Post by Marcus »

Analytics wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:12 pm
Given the interest on this thread and that debate Saturday night where those kids seemed to honestly believe that leaving the Church leads to bad things happening in life, I’ll answer the question. I’m uneasy about this, because my life could be a cover story of Prosperity Atheism magazine, but that isn’t the message I want to convey. I wouldn’t say I’ve been “blessed” by leaving the church, but my life has in fact gotten much better.

At the age of 10, I was diagnosed with Juvenile Rheumatoid Arthritis, but based upon the pattern of joint damage in the x-rays, the diagnosis was updated to Ankylosing Spondylitis. The disease caused severe inflammation, joint damage, and pain. Thankfully, the joint damage is just in my hips, knees, shoulders, and elbows, but not in my back. Thank God (or Satan or whatever divine being you’d like), I’ve always been able to stand up straight.

When I turned 19 I disclosed this to the Church, and in their infinite wisdom and inspiration they called me to serve in Argentina Buenos Aires South. My knees were in excruciating pain as I walked around Argentina. Whenever we were invited into a house to sit down and talk to people, the relief of the pain from sitting was so intense I’d often fall asleep in the middle of the discussion. More often than not, this would happen several times a day. I had multiple priesthood blessings of course, but they didn’t help.

After a year, the arthritis got progressively worse to the point where I literally couldn’t walk. At all. At that point they sent me back to the states where I spent a couple months at home receiving proper medical care, and was then reassigned to finish my mission in Thatcher Arizona and El Paso Texas in areas where the missionaries had cars.

Soon after I left the Church the biological drug Remicade was released, and this turned out to be very effective for me. It was outrageously expensive, but effective.

Since leaving the Church:

1- I’ve completely recovered from the Ankylosing Spondylitis and am healthy and completely drug free. I still have some residual joint damage, but the pain and disease progression are gone. This wasn’t supposed to happen—I was supposed to be taking outrageously expensive biological medications until I died. But I’m healthier now at 52 than I’ve ever been in my entire life. Ever.

2- My annual income has increased by a factor of ten, allowing me to do things like send my daughter to a liberal arts college and pay for the whole thing, allowing her to enter grownup life with a college degree and no debt.

3- I’ve become comfortable in my own skin and dealing with reality as it is. It was demeaning to my soul to try to have faith in things that I knew deep down were silly. It was demeaning to show religious deference to an uninspired hierarchy. It hurt my spirit. Being the captain of my own soul and approaching life as an adult with intellectual integrity is exhilarating.

4- My wife left the Church with me, and our relationship has dramatically improved.

5- I have several friendships with people I like and respect, and they like and respect me too.

6- To top it all off, the Royals won the World Series, and the Chiefs won the Super Bowl.

What’s clear to me is that everybody is subject to good luck and bad luck, and the only thing we have some control over is the strategy we formulate for our own lives, and the tactical decisions we make for how we respond to what life throws at us.

I would much rather be me now than me as I was when I was a Mormon. I would much rather emulate my life after people who are engaged with reality such as Steven Pinker, Yuval Noah Harari, Sean Carroll, and Richard Dawkins than people like Russell Nelson, Dallin Oaks, or Jeffrey Holland. The former group is not only much more in tune with reality, they also have better ethical systems. They are happier, more inspirational, and more influential. And most importantly, they have infinitely more intellectual integrity.

I’m sure there are people out there like Cardon Ellis who can function better with an imaginary father giving them purpose, guiding their life, and assuring them everything turns out rosy in the end. If somebody really needs that to function, then let them have it. It reminds me of somebody I once saw on TikTok who made the same argument about drugs and all the lives that meth has actually saved—how many people would have committed suicide without it? If that’s what somebody needs, I’ll try to have empathy and not judge. But it seems better not to become addicted to such things in the first place.

In any case, for me and my house, we choose reality.
Thanks for posting this, Analytics. It was inspiring.

Congrats on your good health and happy family, and may both continue!

(if the Chiefs win again, I'd be ok with that to. Mahomes stopped regressing to the mean yesterday, so I'm hopeful. :D )
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