John Gee FAIR interview with Scott Gordon

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Kishkumen
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Re: John Gee FAIR interview with Scott Gordon

Post by Kishkumen »

I would love to read a detailed refutation of Gee’s claims in this interview.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Re: John Gee FAIR interview with Scott Gordon

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Shulem wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:13 pm
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:05 pm
Shulem,

How many times have you reached out to Gee and offered to debate him either on an online format, or on camera?

- Doc

I hope that's not a trick question. ;)

Actually, I've never personally reached out to Gee to ask him to debate me or anyone for that matter. …


I hope that answers your question. Bottom line, it would simply be inappropriate for me to have a formal debate with him. We are not matched to do that. …
It’s not a trick question, I literally had no idea if you’ve attempted a debate or formalized conversation of some sort. I think an Egyptology autodidact such as yourself could bring an interesting set of eyes to his scholarship, and it’d be good to see a back and forth.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Re: John Gee FAIR interview with Scott Gordon

Post by Gadianton »

PS. Gee said he is open to the Catalyst Theory as a fallback, second choice.
Did he say if he was open to the actual truth as a third choice?
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Re: John Gee FAIR interview with Scott Gordon

Post by Shulem »

Gadianton wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:12 pm
PS. Gee said he is open to the Catalyst Theory as a fallback, second choice.
Did he say if he was open to the actual truth as a third choice?

He said he doesn't find evidence to support the Catalyst theory. But he also said he thinks it's a decent 2nd choice at least for him. He is unwilling to accept the first theory listed below which is the one I ascribe to. He admits that it's been demonstrated that the the first theory has been proven to show that the Book of Abraham could not have been translated using that method. So he has only one fallback which is the Catalyst theory.

Gee listed the three general theories:

1) Smith translated the Book of Abraham by using the existing fragments
2) Smith translated the Book of Abraham by using the missing roll
3) Smith translated the Book of Abraham by using papyrus as a catalyst
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Re: John Gee FAIR interview with Scott Gordon

Post by Philo Sofee »

I guess the part that has about as much validity to it as the Midnight Mormons showing up to debate RFM in bullet proof vests :roll: :roll: :roll: is to protect John Gee and have only certain special types of subscribers to be able to listen to the interview. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Nothing about this assures anyone that the truth is on The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints side... If one actually knew they had the reality, and the truth of the reality, why on earth would they have any reason for any possibility of being refuted, and therefore for want of a better description, hide behind a safety wall?!? I mean, isn't that what this is? What else can we possibly see this as? And in that case, who is going to actually believe what is said? I certainly can't.
They eliminate dialogue, yet hope every member is a missionary to spread the Gospel! Well, is the Gospel Good News including the Book of Abraham or not? If it is why the special bullet proof vests of a secluded interview and screening of people? This is simply ridiculous. This automatically causes suspicion. Do they not really understand that?
I really want to hear Scott Gordon's reason for doing it this way. I actually can't believe John Gee agreed to it being done this way, or did he? If it was me I wouldn't want it posted under those circumstances. It screams John Gee can't take the heat of discussion and disagreement. What else am I supposed to think? I am seriously trying to be charitable here. It tells me Mormon apologetics isn't mature enough to get into the ring and defend its own truth claims. How can it not give us that impression? I really want some help here. It says if you are a Mormon then you seriously NEED to stop making any kind of truth claims if you are going to shield yourselves from discussion, and/or criticism. Anyone making claims have to realize and recognize others are going to disagree. You can't automatically disqualify them without forfeiting credibility can you?
I mean.... sincerely, do Gordon and Gee actually think this is going to enhance their chances of convincing disbelievers? I am truly curious! This just has all the show of defeat before it even starts.
It would be like playing a football game, but imagining it's acceptable for you to be the running back while driving a car on the field during a game in order to make a touchdown. Sure, you will cross the goal line, but do you actually imagine it will be legitimate and count and everyone will agree you won the game? Come on guys, your apologetics is getting positively *freaky weird.*
Do you actually think if all contestants are shackled with hand cuffs behind their backs then a Ping Pong game is perfectly fine, fair, and all will agree you are a champion because you can't be beat? Just what are you thinking in doing things this way now? First Kwaku, and now this?
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Re: John Gee FAIR interview with Scott Gordon

Post by Kukulkan »

Shulem wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:09 pm
2) Gee tells us that we can't know for sure who authored the Explanations of the Facsimiles. But there is only one person who could have authored them and that is the ordained TRANSLATOR of the Church, Joseph Smith. Nobody else can present revelation and scripture to the entire Church except the President.
I love how we are supposed to believe that on one hand, the restoration of the Church through Joseph Smith Jr. was a marvelous and meticulous affair with God's hand permeating throughout, and yet on the other hand also believe he did nothing and basically played no part in the crucial restorative and revelatory elements.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
"I advise all to go on to perfection and search deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness." -Joseph Smith
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Re: John Gee FAIR interview with Scott Gordon

Post by Philo Sofee »

Kukulkan wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:46 am
Shulem wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:09 pm
2) Gee tells us that we can't know for sure who authored the Explanations of the Facsimiles. But there is only one person who could have authored them and that is the ordained TRANSLATOR of the Church, Joseph Smith. Nobody else can present revelation and scripture to the entire Church except the President.
I love how we are supposed to believe that on one hand, the restoration of the Church through Joseph Smith Jr. was a marvelous and meticulous affair with God's hand permeating throughout, and yet on the other hand also believe he did nothing and basically played no part in the crucial restorative and revelatory elements.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Agreed. And then the cherry on top is many of those revelatory elements which have occurred have been decided to be only human opinions after all, so God wasn't doing any guiding either in the doctrine or practice.
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Re: John Gee FAIR interview with Scott Gordon

Post by Moksha »

Shulem wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:23 pm
Do it slowly if need be and in increments, ...
Book of Abraham reality baby steps.
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Re: John Gee FAIR interview with Scott Gordon

Post by Shulem »

Moksha wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:15 am
Shulem wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:23 pm
Do it slowly if need be and in increments, ...
Book of Abraham reality baby steps.

Exactly. That is probably what John needs to do. He's so invested and submerged into his current thinking and commitment to the Church that he is limited on how he can shift and begin to make the needed changes that will nourish him and move him away from the institution that owns him.

The plaid shirt that John was wearing during the interview seems to reflect his desire to simplify and get back to nature by letting things go with the flow. He has to find that flow and go with it. I really hope he begins to make a shift. Isn't it time, John?

Only time will tell what he does. We will continue to watch.
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Re: John Gee FAIR interview with Scott Gordon

Post by Fence Sitter »

Shulem wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:25 am


Exactly. That is probably what John needs to do. He's so invested and submerged into his current thinking and commitment to the Church that he is limited on how he can shift and begin to make the needed changes that will nourish him and move him away from the institution that owns him.

The plaid shirt that John was wearing during the interview seems to reflect his desire to simplify and get back to nature by letting things go with the flow. He has to find that flow and go with it. I really hope he begins to make a shift. Isn't it time, John?

Only time will tell what he does. We will continue to watch.
Gee cannot move away from the missing scroll theory until he retires. He holds the William (Bill) Gay Research Chair whose purpose is:
"The purpose of the William (Bill) Gay Research Chair is to support scholarship in fields of study directly related to ancient scripture study, such as Egyptology and other relevant ancient languages and disciplines and to contribute in a significant way to further knowledge, understanding and appreciation of the scriptural heritage of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."
So if he were to embrace the catalyst theory he would no longer be qualified to hold that chair. The BYU Egyptologist are stuck between a rock and a missing scroll.
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