On Bill Reel Disabusing Me of a Richard Carrier Claim

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On Bill Reel Disabusing Me of a Richard Carrier Claim

Post by Analytics »

Richard Carrier said the following:
There are serious methodological flaws in the defenses made of the existence and contents of Q, and it looks far more likely to me that what we call ‘Q’ was nothing more than additions made to Mark by Matthew, which were then redacted into Luke. I see no merit in assuming otherwise without very good evidence, and the evidence presented even by staunch advocates of Q cannot honestly be described as even ‘good’. Whereas the evidence for Luke using Matthew is very good (see Chapter 10, §6).

Carrier, Richard. On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt (pp. 309-310). Sheffield Phoenix Press. Kindle Edition.
When I read this, I couldn't think of a reason why there should be a Q, rather than Luke relying on Matthew (or vice versa), but I assumed there had to have been more to the argument. Not knowing what to make of this, this claim has been an open question nagging in my mind.

With that as background, last night I started to listen to last week's episode of Mormonism Live about the historical Jesus, and Bill did an excellent job explaining the Q hypothesis. What you clearly get out of Matthew and Luke is that they both knew that historical Jesus was in fact from Nazareth and they couldn't escape from this well known fact, but they both needed Jesus to be born in Bethlehem to fulfill the prophesy that the Messiah would be born there (Micha 5:2). It turns out that Matthew and Luke both made up completely implausible and completely contradictory stories about how Jesus of Nazareth was really from Bethlehem. If Luke was cribbing off of Matthew, why would he completely change the story of Jesus' birth, which already fulfilled the prophesy about Bethlehem?

Because of this important and material inconsistency (and presumably others like it), it seems more likely that the non-Mark similarities between Matthew and Luke came from "Q".
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Re: On Bill Reel Disabusing Me of a Richard Carrier Claim

Post by Res Ipsa »

Interesting. I've had that as an open question as well. Are you aware of any written list of non-Markian similarities between Matthew and Luke?
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Re: On Bill Reel Disabusing Me of a Richard Carrier Claim

Post by Bret Ripley »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu Dec 30, 2021 7:33 pm
Are you aware of any written list of non-Markian similarities between Matthew and Luke?
This link includes a list of verse references (not actual text) that show similarities between Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Verses are arranged in columns (one for each gospel) so if you ignore those with a reference in the 'Mark' column you'll be left with a list of non-Markian similarities between Matthew and Luke:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/q-contents.html
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Re: On Bill Reel Disabusing Me of a Richard Carrier Claim

Post by Res Ipsa »

Bret Ripley wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 4:54 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu Dec 30, 2021 7:33 pm
Are you aware of any written list of non-Markian similarities between Matthew and Luke?
This link includes a list of verse references (not actual text) that show similarities between Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Verses are arranged in columns (one for each gospel) so if you ignore those with a reference in the 'Mark' column you'll be left with a list of non-Markian similarities between Matthew and Luke:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/q-contents.html

Thanks, Brett. I really appreciate it.
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Re: On Bill Reel Disabusing Me of a Richard Carrier Claim

Post by drumdude »

It looks like Ehrman and Carrier have had a recent blog debate over the historicity of Jesus, which should be some very good reading:

https://www.richardcarrier.information/archives/1794
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Re: On Bill Reel Disabusing Me of a Richard Carrier Claim

Post by dastardly stem »

Unless I'm misunderstanding, if Luke wanted to change Matthew for personal preferences, I can't see how this argues for Q. If Luke seeing both Matthew and Mark, thinking, "I could outdo these", there is little reason to think there was anything Luke or Matthew used as source, other than Mark.

I don't see how it's interesting or helpful to position Q. Although it has been argued that if there were a Q it likely could have derived from itinerant preacher ideas spread over previous generations. As we start to do that, we see not much more than people building assumptions on top of assumptions.
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Re: On Bill Reel Disabusing Me of a Richard Carrier Claim

Post by Bret Ripley »

Unless I'm misunderstanding,
This is the beginning of wisdom.
if Luke wanted to change Matthew for personal preferences
Assumption: Luke wanted to change Matthew for personal preferences.
If Luke seeing both Matthew and Mark, thinking, "I could outdo these"
Assumption: Luke wanted to outdo Matthew and Mark.
we see not much more than people building assumptions on top of assumptions.
To quote Luke (but neither Mark nor Matthew): Physician, heal thyself. :)

But sure, there are some decent reasons to doubt the existence of Q. But when you say you don't understand how positing Q is interesting or helpful, I'm tempted to think you may not fully appreciate the textual-dependency issues that can be explained by Q (regardless of whether we think it is true or not).

There are reasons to think that the author of 'Luke' may have been unaware of 'Matthew.' For example, Luke records some occurrences that also appear in Matthew, but Luke's versions are less elaborate (e.g. the Sermon on the Mount, the Lord's Prayer). If Luke's agenda was to 'out-do' Matthew (as you put it), would he offer versions inferior to those appearing in Matthew? The existence of a Q could explain this sort of material: Matthew and Luke had some source for stories that don't appear in Mark, but simply stating 'Luke borrowed from Matthew' is not a slam-dunk response. Whether or not you think the existence of Q is probable, it's ability to explain some textual-dependency issues is undeniable. For this reason its appeal should be rather obvious.

Anyway, some Q issues are more fully discussed here:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/q-exist.html
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Re: On Bill Reel Disabusing Me of a Richard Carrier Claim

Post by dastardly stem »

Bret Ripley wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 10:17 pm
Unless I'm misunderstanding,
This is the beginning of wisdom.
if Luke wanted to change Matthew for personal preferences
Assumption: Luke wanted to change Matthew for personal preferences.
If Luke seeing both Matthew and Mark, thinking, "I could outdo these"
Assumption: Luke wanted to outdo Matthew and Mark.
we see not much more than people building assumptions on top of assumptions.
To quote Luke (but neither Mark nor Matthew): Physician, heal thyself. :)

But sure, there are some decent reasons to doubt the existence of Q. But when you say you don't understand how positing Q is interesting or helpful, I'm tempted to think you may not fully appreciate the textual-dependency issues that can be explained by Q (regardless of whether we think it is true or not).

There are reasons to think that the author of 'Luke' may have been unaware of 'Matthew.' For example, Luke records some occurrences that also appear in Matthew, but Luke's versions are less elaborate (e.g. the Sermon on the Mount, the Lord's Prayer). If Luke's agenda was to 'out-do' Matthew (as you put it), would he offer versions inferior to those appearing in Matthew? The existence of a Q could explain this sort of material: Matthew and Luke had some source for stories that don't appear in Mark, but simply stating 'Luke borrowed from Matthew' is not a slam-dunk response. Whether or not you think the existence of Q is probable, it's ability to explain some textual-dependency issues is undeniable. For this reason its appeal should be rather obvious.

Anyway, some Q issues are more fully discussed here:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/q-exist.html
Thanks for the thoughts Brett. I've seen arguments for Q and attempts to argue its evidenced by literary dependence and other reasons.
I'm unconvinced. It always seems as likely no Q as yes Q when it's considered. Im open for further consideration..
This thread seems to be more of the same. That we can make obvious other assumptions to show its as likely Q as not Q shows we're simply replying on assumptions to posit Q.

EtA:

Yes, Luke could attempt to outdo Matthew and the result could be Matthew outgoing Luke in your estimation (Sermon on the mount, the lords prayer). And the outdo idea wasn't mine originally but cam from others before me. Latest I heard it from Mark Goodacre.
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Re: On Bill Reel Disabusing Me of a Richard Carrier Claim

Post by doubtingthomas »

I wonder if Richard Carrier is a Galileo.
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Re: On Bill Reel Disabusing Me of a Richard Carrier Claim

Post by Bret Ripley »

dastardly stem wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 10:25 pm
Thanks for the thoughts Brett.
And thank you for classifying them as 'thoughts.' I'm an accountant and rather out of my depth here (especially compared to the actual experts who post here). In this particular field I'm an autodidact, which is Greek for "had an idiot for a teacher."
I'm unconvinced. It always seems as likely no Q as yes Q when it's considered. Im open for further consideration.
That's an entirely reasonable position, as far as I'm concerned. I was reacting to your comment about not finding Q helpful -- I think it clearly has explanatory power, so its appeal is not unreasonable.

In some respects, Q is interesting to me in a way similar to why I find quantum physics or 'Jack the Ripper' interesting -- I don't think there will ever be resolutions satisfactory to all parties, but that doesn't make inquiry fruitless. Maybe I'm just weird ... I did mention I was an accountant, didn't I?
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