The substantial cost of theistic morality

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huckelberry
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Re: The substantial cost of theistic morality

Post by huckelberry »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:16 pm
PseudoPaul wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 12:39 am

In Mormonism, God is a part of the universe. He's one God in an infinite chain of Gods. He's not omnipotent, he didn't even make the rules - if he doesn't follow the rules, he will cease to be God. So in Mormonism God isn't even the author of morality - morality is just a part of the rules of the universe. So Christian apologetics don't work for Mormonism.
God is part of the universe? How does that work?

On the assumption that Big Bang is the theory flavor we’re scooping up.

I guess you’re referring to Kolob? How does Kolob fit with Big Bang?

Seems to me God’s hang out pre BB would have had to been elsewhere/when.

Was He AS omnipotent then as He is now? Is now then? So many questions, so few answers…😉

Interesting thread. Just popping in.

Regards,
MG
MG, to whom are your questions to be presented? Are you asking about Joseph Smiths views? Brigham Young? Has their been a Presidential clarification for LDS since then? You probably are not asking how the Pope would view it or Jurgen Moltman would or some ordinary fellow like me views it.

Should I consider what I remember from LDS seminary or what I think now?
MG 2.0
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Re: The substantial cost of theistic morality

Post by MG 2.0 »

huckelberry wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:04 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:16 pm


God is part of the universe? How does that work?

On the assumption that Big Bang is the theory flavor we’re scooping up.

I guess you’re referring to Kolob? How does Kolob fit with Big Bang?

Seems to me God’s hang out pre BB would have had to been elsewhere/when.

Was He AS omnipotent then as He is now? Is now then? So many questions, so few answers…😉

Interesting thread. Just popping in.

Regards,
MG
MG, to whom are your questions to be presented? Are you asking about Joseph Smiths views? Brigham Young? Has their been a Presidential clarification for LDS since then? You probably are not asking how the Pope would view it or Jurgen Moltman would or some ordinary fellow like me views it.

Should I consider what I remember from LDS seminary or what I think now?
They are more rhetorical than anything. I don’t have answers. I don’t think anyone else does either.

Regards,
MG
doubtingthomas
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Re: The substantial cost of theistic morality

Post by doubtingthomas »

huckelberry wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:56 pm
the government pressure to reject Christianity because it is bad for society)
Okay.
huckelberry wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:56 pm
(that is what your article link talks about
The article also talks about how atheism was a religion in the Soviet Union.

So, the world would probably be better of without religion.

Religion - 2 a. "any specific system of belief and worship, often involving a code of ethics and a philosophy"
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dicti ... h/religion
"I have the type of (REAL) job where I can choose how to spend my time," says Marcus. :roll:
huckelberry
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Re: The substantial cost of theistic morality

Post by huckelberry »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:12 am
huckelberry wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:56 pm
the government pressure to reject Christianity because it is bad for society)
Okay.
huckelberry wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:56 pm
(that is what your article link talks about
The article also talks about how atheism was a religion in the Soviet Union.

So, the world would probably be better of without religion.

Religion - 2 a. "any specific system of belief and worship, often involving a code of ethics and a philosophy"
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dicti ... h/religion
doubtingthomas,
Well, I can see you have a point that the intolerant doctrinal devotion which can harm society is not limited to god or spirit beliefs. The communist system shared qualities with religious systems. I am wondering how or if one should exclude many other cultural thought systems. How about belief in American democracy or our constitutional government? There is a religious quality to belief in Republican party politics, or Democratic party politics, or other groups. Perhaps the National Football League would be considered.

Sports in America generally holds back from violence though that is not 100 percent. Politics seems to carry more danger. I am not dismissive of your concern that religious belief (or political) can generate unthinking devotion creating dangers. The lurch from religious belief to fanatical Trump devotion which has occurred has for me done more undermining of my faith than anything I have encountered in my life before. It would not be as bad if people simply and rationally wanted conservative policies. The religious devotion Trump garners is something else.

Perhaps where I find myself agreeing with you the most is in considering a connection between religious type beliefs and the desire for a strong leader. I doubt that Russians were all agreeing to be unquestioning about the communist government but I think peoples desire for a strong government leader gave Stalin material to use for his power. I see people wanting the personal strength Trump projects as his image. I am shocked at seeing how attractive that is for so many religious people.

But I have another layer of this concern. It seems to me that there is a surprising amount of criticism of Biden for not being strong enough. This seems to come from people who sort of support him. He cannot make Republicans vote for his measures. A disappointment and the world has problems. Are we humans always wanting a superman to save us?
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Res Ipsa
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Re: The substantial cost of theistic morality

Post by Res Ipsa »

DT has now explicitly made the "No true atheist" argument. According to him, a self-described atheist political movement that expressly forbade and persecuted religion, is a religion. But what's missing? God. Any kind of God. So, now, any movement or organization can be thrown into the category of religion, regardless of wether the movement is atheistic or theistic. Boy scouts? Religion. Secular humanism? Religion. Camp Fire Girls? religion. Libertarians? Religion. Anime fans? Religion.

All of which underscores my point. DT's problem isn't actually religion, although he insists it is. It's certain characteristics and behaviors that can occur in any organized group. Some of the similarities he cites between the Russian Orthodox religion and Stalinism are not unequivocally bad things: group support, moral codes, etc.

I'm all for harm reduction. But that requires identifying and addressing actual harm -- not generalized bigotry against broad groups of people.
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When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.

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doubtingthomas
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Re: The substantial cost of theistic morality

Post by doubtingthomas »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:06 pm
DT has now explicitly made the "No true atheist" argument. According to him, a self-described atheist political movement that expressly forbade and persecuted religion, is a religion. But what's missing? God. Any kind of God. So, now, any movement or organization can be thrown into the category of religion, regardless of wether the movement is atheistic or theistic. Boy scouts? Religion. Secular humanism? Religion. Camp Fire Girls? religion. Libertarians? Religion. Anime fans? Religion..
Religion - 2 a. "any specific system of belief and worship, often involving a code of ethics and a philosophy"
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dicti ... h/religion
"I have the type of (REAL) job where I can choose how to spend my time," says Marcus. :roll:
doubtingthomas
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Re: The substantial cost of theistic morality

Post by doubtingthomas »

huckelberry wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:50 pm
doubtingthomas wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:12 am


Okay.



The article also talks about how atheism was a religion in the Soviet Union.

So, the world would probably be better of without religion.

Religion - 2 a. "any specific system of belief and worship, often involving a code of ethics and a philosophy"
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dicti ... h/religion
doubtingthomas,
Well, I can see you have a point that the intolerant doctrinal devotion which can harm society is not limited to god or spirit beliefs. The communist system shared qualities with religious systems. I am wondering how or if one should exclude many other cultural thought systems. How about belief in American democracy or our constitutional government? There is a religious quality to belief in Republican party politics, or Democratic party politics, or other groups. Perhaps the National Football League would be considered.
I guess the key word is "worship".
"I have the type of (REAL) job where I can choose how to spend my time," says Marcus. :roll:
doubtingthomas
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Re: The substantial cost of theistic morality

Post by doubtingthomas »

huckelberry wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:50 pm
I doubt that Russians were all agreeing to be unquestioning about the communist government but I think peoples desire for a strong government leader gave Stalin material to use for his power.
Yes, and that makes me wonder how many officials were true atheists.
"I have the type of (REAL) job where I can choose how to spend my time," says Marcus. :roll:
doubtingthomas
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Re: The substantial cost of theistic morality

Post by doubtingthomas »

huckelberry wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:50 pm
The communist system shared qualities with religious systems. I am wondering how or if one should exclude many other cultural thought systems. How about belief in American democracy or our constitutional government? There is a religious quality to belief in Republican party politics, or Democratic party politics, or other groups. Perhaps the National Football League would be considered.
That would be fine as long as people don't worship them.

In the US, the constitution is treated like the Holy Bible. I think the constitution is outdated.
"I have the type of (REAL) job where I can choose how to spend my time," says Marcus. :roll:
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Res Ipsa
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Re: The substantial cost of theistic morality

Post by Res Ipsa »

Worship: 3 : extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem

Used in a sentence: DT worships science.

Therefore, science is a religion.

Isn’t the dictionary game fun?
he/him
When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.

Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
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