The substantial cost of theistic morality

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huckelberry
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Re: The substantial cost of theistic morality

Post by huckelberry »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 12:09 am
Res Ipsa wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:41 pm
If religion suddenly disappeared from the earth, do you think the violent gangs to which you refer would start giving out hugs instead of killing people?
Violent gangs wouldn't use folk Catholicism to justify murder. A lot of gang members believe some invisible spirit is protecting them.
Res Ipsa wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:53 am

The fact is, you have no idea at all about the effect that the disappearance of religion would have on gang violence in Latin America.
Gang members wouldn't have the balls to risk their own lives and future. Gang members believe god or a spirit wants them to commit murder. I am not kidding! It is well documented!

I used to think Islam was the worse religion, not anymore.
To clarify, the Catholic church specifically rejects this cult of lady or saint death.It warns against it. I think this is a clear example of people generating religion which reflects and amplifies the values of the gang involved.

I do not think it is a real option to imagine just getting rid of religion. Religion is not applied to people but generated by people.A death figure for strength and violence does not appear because of religion but peoples desire for a spiritual strength creates such figures.

It is interesting that the image of this death lady has a lengthy history and a variety of meanings. There is an important Diego Rivera painting, Sunday in the Park, I believe it is named where the skeletal lady is dressed in finery and walking with the well to do business leaders.There is likely political intention in the image. The lady of death has been associated with pilgrimage to an old Catholic church in New Mexico. Healing for medical problems is the meaning there. Her image is kept out of the actual church by official Catholic instruction but remains in buildings on the same grounds.

I think the image has emotional power and people adopt it for various purposes in which its meaning can take different forms. The Greatful Dead emblem would be another example with flexible possible meanings.
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Morley
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Re: The substantial cost of theistic morality

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huckelberry wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:26 pm
There is an important Diego Rivera painting, Sunday in the Park, I believe it is named where the skeletal lady is dressed in finery and walking with the well to do business leaders.There is likely political intention in the image. The lady of death has been associated with pilgrimage to an old Catholic church in New Mexico. Healing for medical problems is the meaning there. Her image is kept out of the actual church by official Catholic instruction but remains in buildings on the same grounds.

I think the image has emotional power and people adopt it for various purposes in which its meaning can take different forms. The Greatful Dead emblem would be another example with flexible possible meanings.
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huckelberry
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Re: The substantial cost of theistic morality

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Thankyou much Morley. I am fond of that painting. I was thinking the reproduction color may be a bit high key but I have not seen the original. I rechecked a book of Rivera work wondering if there by chance was a second version. No your contribution a center detail of the large work. Freda is easily recognized here but my book pointed out it is Posada, the skeleton enthusiast, on the other side. The child with Freda is a young Diego. It would appear that the skeleton lady may be a sort of muse.

In my region there is an outstanding local artist James Lavadour whose development as an artist I followed from his beginning learning exploration. He did landscape. The images could be suggestive and expressive or sometimes detailed and realistic. They expanded . There was a point when he introduced skeletons. Some of those images could be a bit frightening. Other times they could ask emotional empathy.In either case they were a door to his mature and successful paintings.
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Morley
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Re: The substantial cost of theistic morality

Post by Morley »

huckelberry wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 7:59 pm
Thankyou much Morley. I am fond of that painting. I was thinking the reproduction color may be a bit high key but I have not seen the original. I rechecked a book of Rivera work wondering if there by chance was a second version. No your contribution a center detail of the large work. Freda is easily recognized here but my book pointed out it is Posada, the skeleton enthusiast, on the other side. The child with Freda is a young Diego. It would appear that the skeleton lady may be a sort of muse.

In my region there is an outstanding local artist James Lavadour whose development as an artist I followed from his beginning learning exploration. He did landscape. The images could be suggestive and expressive or sometimes detailed and realistic. They expanded . There was a point when he introduced skeletons. Some of those images could be a bit frightening. Other times they could ask emotional empathy.In either case they were a door to his mature and successful paintings.
I'd never seen that painting until you referred to it. Thank you for sharing what you know about it.
doubtingthomas
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Re: The substantial cost of theistic morality

Post by doubtingthomas »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 4:01 am
I am just truly sincere when I ask does Peterson actually think there is an objective morality when even Joseph Smith proved it is relative? He is on record as saying in one instance God says do not kill, and you cannot do so, or it is wrong since God said so. But God has also commanded to kill, and in that instance, you had better do so or you are wrong to disobey God. So no killing is actually just relative depending on circumstances, not objectively moral. Am I off?
I think morality for apologists is objectively relative.
doubtingthomas
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Re: The substantial cost of theistic morality

Post by doubtingthomas »

huckelberry wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:26 pm

To clarify, the Catholic church specifically rejects this cult of lady or saint death.It warns against it. I think this is a clear example of people generating religion which reflects and amplifies the values of the gang involved.

I do not think it is a real option to imagine just getting rid of religion. Religion is not applied to people but generated by people.A death figure for strength and violence does not appear because of religion but peoples desire for a spiritual strength creates such figures.
Interesting. Would you agree religious people are more likely to enlist in the military and risk their lives?
huckelberry
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Re: The substantial cost of theistic morality

Post by huckelberry »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:37 pm
huckelberry wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:26 pm

To clarify, the Catholic church specifically rejects this cult of lady or saint death.It warns against it. I think this is a clear example of people generating religion which reflects and amplifies the values of the gang involved.

I do not think it is a real option to imagine just getting rid of religion. Religion is not applied to people but generated by people.A death figure for strength and violence does not appear because of religion but peoples desire for a spiritual strength creates such figures.
Interesting. Would you agree religious people are more likely to enlist in the military and risk their lives?
doubtingthomas, this is an interesting question but may be tricky as well. To be simple I would suspect yes but different people can be different. There are religious people who are against war or hope to limit war.All sorts of people see a value in courage. I think it is an essential thing but not always well directed.
doubtingthomas
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Re: The substantial cost of theistic morality

Post by doubtingthomas »

huckelberry wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:17 am
All sorts of people see a value in courage.
I agree, but fear does help prevent war or gun battles. Who do you think fears death more?
malkie
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Re: The substantial cost of theistic morality

Post by malkie »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 7:33 pm
huckelberry wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:17 am
All sorts of people see a value in courage.
I agree, but fear does help prevent war or gun battles. Who do you think fears death more?
I don't think that it's a give that "fear does help prevent war or gun battles".

You'd need to be a lot more specific about what you mean by the "fear" that helps in that way. And then I suspect you may find that the fear you are talking about is a small subset of a more general "fear" that may play no part at all in helping to prevent war or gun battles.
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Re: The substantial cost of theistic morality

Post by Chap »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:37 pm
Would you agree religious people are more likely to enlist in the military and risk their lives?
A lot of atheist communists have in the past had no problem at all in risking their lives in battle.

That is a simple fact: to forestall irrelevant comments, I do not intend by saying that to pass any judgement, positive or negative, on their motives.
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That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
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