Peterson the historical skeptic

[drumdude]

Joseph was a prophet of a certain dispensation, that dispensation is over which is why prophets are now CEOs.

Yep, they put their faces into spreadsheets and P&L accounts these days…

Growing a 19th century swindle into a trillion dollar corporation is actually pretty magical.

[Marcus]

As I mentioned in my previous post, at the end of the day it becomes a question of who are you going to trust and what sources are you going to believe. I’ve been around the block MANY times. I think I’ve seen the lion’s share of what there is to see. I have ‘with intent’ tried to keep balanced in my approach. As a result of taking this approach…for me…the balance scales tip in favor of...

I find this method of arguing very curious. By introducing the idea that you 'trust' and 'believe in' a source, you are making implicit the idea that you take that source as given. Rather than trusting and believing in a source, it seems the logical approach would be to evaluate what the source says, to the best of your ability. Your arguments that you trust a source are not compelling.

Additionally, by further pointing out you've been 'around the block many times' and have seen 'the lion's share of what there is to see', you seem to be implying others have not. Given the sheer amount of information generated on this board over the years by a variety of very accomplished authors, this is a level of hubris that seems ill-advised.

In my mind as I read the history of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon I find that the traditional story/history from favorable sources outweighs the conspiracy/con scenario. And we could, as I said earlier, argue until the cows come home with no real hope of resolving anything. You’ll go your way and I’ll go mine.

Just start with that, next time. Although, giving and supporting your reasons is typical of this board, so please, don't stop where you have here. It would be interesting, in a factual discussion, to hear something other than just your testimony.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Imagine what a faith-inspiring event that would have been. I think that even Lucy would have been on board, after such a demonstration.
; )

The Church has the seer stone, but Prophets don’t use it. Why not? What are they afraid of?

They could literally use the stone now, if it were magical, to see where Lucy stuffed the manuscript. They could FIND THE TRANSLATED UNPUBLISHED PORTION OF THE Book of Mormon RIGHT NOW. TODAY. Even if the manuscript were disintegrated they could still locate where it was, who had it, and what happened to it after Lucy allegedly stole it.

Think about it. Think about how unimportant the mOsT iMpOrTaNt BoOk EvEr is. All that record keeping by the Nephites, all that abridging by Mormon, all that hauling around of the plates, all the cat and mouse games he had to go through, all the interstellar travel Moroni had to do, all the tRiAlS Joseph Smith endured, only to be defeated by a suspicious woman and the absolutely braindead choice to not use the seer stones to, you know, SEE WHERE THE MANUSCRIPT WAS AT.



- Doc

[drumdude]

The Church has the seer stone, but Prophets don’t use it. Why not? What are they afraid of?

They could literally use the stone now, if it were magical, to see where Lucy stuffed the manuscript. They could FIND THE TRANSLATED UNPUBLISHED PORTION OF THE Book of Mormon RIGHT NOW. TODAY. Even if the manuscript were disintegrated they could still locate where it was, who had it, and what happened to it after Lucy allegedly stole it.

Think about it. Think about how unimportant the mOsT iMpOrTaNt BoOk EvEr is. All that record keeping by the Nephites, all that abridging by Mormon, all that hauling around of the plates, all the cat and mouse games he had to go through, all the interstellar travel Moroni had to do, all the tRiAlS Joseph Smith endured, only to be defeated by a suspicious woman and the absolutely braindead choice to not use the seer stones to, you know, SEE WHERE THE MANUSCRIPT WAS AT.



- Doc

Hell, they could go to Guatemala and pick up one of the steel swords left over from the battles where millions of Lamanites died.

[malkie]

OK - all of that is quite possible. Geniuses and remarkable people appear all through history. I'm sure that many also appear and disappear without their genius being recognised.

Let’s recognize the nature of Joseph’s genius.

If you haven’t spent the time reading this article by Brian Hales may I suggest you do so. It’s somewhat frustrating posting here because by all appearances there are folks that haven’t done their homework or have consciously decided to ignore it. I hope you’re not one of them.

https://journal.interpreterfoundation.o ... of-Mormon/

What a truly elaborate scheme for a young man to undertake so as to avoid farm work. And as one looks at a number of historical sources, that seems to be an unreasonable assumption to begin with.

Joseph and his early accomplishments with the Book of Mormon are an anomaly to be sure. Emma’s sacrifice and concern with the project (loss of the 116 pages) are, again, worth mentioning. Was it all for gold and fame/power…or was it the work of God? If Joseph was a religious savant above other savants I suppose you might reasonably go the ‘con’ route. But the early evidence of Joseph’s abilities and his lack of formal education doesn’t lend itself to that theory in my opinion.

Regards,
MG

Since you seem to have missed the bulk of the comment you are replying to here, here it is again:

There is no need to invoke a god, because all of the rest can occur without any divine intervention. You demonstrate this by your unwillingness to accept all other religions as equally valid and true. I assume that you realise that the adherents of these other religions generally as heavily invested in their own worldview as you are in yours.

But, please, can you be a bit more accurate in your second-last sentence: Secularists/agnostics/atheists of course don’t want to go there with any religion, not just yours, without compelling evidence.

Interestingly, you don't seem to complain that secularists/agnostics/atheists reject all of the religions that you don't adhere to. Perhaps they simply don't see yours as any more remarkable or true than that of anyone else. And in the case of yours, there is plenty of contrary evidence that is readily available and well known to many of the former believers on this board.

I have not studied any of the others, beyond taking a Catholic catechism class, but I believe that many secularists/agnostics/atheists have, and have come to the same conclusions: for each, there is insufficient compelling evidence. They are not just being annoyingly unwilling concerning Mormonism.

Sorry, MG - your chosen belief is just not that special.

Even granted the anomaly, and "uniqueness" of Joseph Smith, I'm not convinced. Uniqueness, per se, is not necessarily an indicator of anything other than uniqueness. "Uniqueness, therefor god" is a pretty weak argument.

I still see nothing that requires the intervention of a god, and clearly the bulk of the rest of the world doesn't see it either. That probably includes a whole bunch of historians who are more familiar with the historical record than you or I are ever likely to be.

Since you seem hung up on the "not to avoid farmwork" idea, let me ask you: what station do you think that Joseph would have reached in life if he had simply pursued farm labouring? Anything remotely resembling revered community leader, military leader, US presidential candidate, 36+ "wives"? People do all sorts of things (including what in retrospect seem like unnecessary or counterproductive effort) to avoid work. The jails are full of people who thought that they could have a comfortable living at the expense of others, and were disappointed to discover that their schemes didn't pan out.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

They could literally use the stone now, if it were magical, to see where Lucy stuffed the manuscript. They could FIND THE TRANSLATED UNPUBLISHED PORTION OF THE Book of Mormon RIGHT NOW. TODAY. Even if the manuscript were disintegrated they could still locate where it was, who had it, and what happened to it after Lucy allegedly stole it.

Think about it. Think about how unimportant the mOsT iMpOrTaNt BoOk EvEr is. All that record keeping by the Nephites, all that abridging by Mormon, all that hauling around of the plates, all the cat and mouse games he had to go through, all the interstellar travel Moroni had to do, all the tRiAlS Joseph Smith endured, only to be defeated by a suspicious woman and the absolutely braindead choice to not use the seer stones to, you know, SEE WHERE THE MANUSCRIPT WAS AT.



- Doc

Hell, they could go to Guatemala and pick up one of the steel swords left over from the battles where millions of Lamanites died.

Hell, since the plates weren’t even necessary they could peep into the stones, figure out if the manuscript was destroyed, figure out if a ‘false translation’ of the manuscript was made, and if it’s safe to do so ‘cause devious Satan’s plan can’t work itself out now, they could just “translate” the already translated portion of the plates because why wouldn’t they do it? It’s super important, right? I mean all that effort, and God is just gonna be like, “Meh. Good enough. Whatevs?”



- Doc

[drumdude]

Mental Gymnastics is in his name...

[MG 2.0]

Let’s recognize the nature of Joseph’s genius.

If you haven’t spent the time reading this article by Brian Hales may I suggest you do so. It’s somewhat frustrating posting here because by all appearances there are folks that haven’t done their homework or have consciously decided to ignore it. I hope you’re not one of them.

https://journal.interpreterfoundation.o ... of-Mormon/

What a truly elaborate scheme for a young man to undertake so as to avoid farm work. And as one looks at a number of historical sources, that seems to be an unreasonable assumption to begin with.

Joseph and his early accomplishments with the Book of Mormon are an anomaly to be sure. Emma’s sacrifice and concern with the project (loss of the 116 pages) are, again, worth mentioning. Was it all for gold and fame/power…or was it the work of God? If Joseph was a religious savant above other savants I suppose you might reasonably go the ‘con’ route. But the early evidence of Joseph’s abilities and his lack of formal education doesn’t lend itself to that theory in my opinion.

Regards,
MG

Since you seem to have missed the bulk of the comment you are replying to here, here it is again:

There is no need to invoke a god, because all of the rest can occur without any divine intervention. You demonstrate this by your unwillingness to accept all other religions as equally valid and true. I assume that you realise that the adherents of these other religions generally as heavily invested in their own worldview as you are in yours.

But, please, can you be a bit more accurate in your second-last sentence: Secularists/agnostics/atheists of course don’t want to go there with any religion, not just yours, without compelling evidence.

Interestingly, you don't seem to complain that secularists/agnostics/atheists reject all of the religions that you don't adhere to. Perhaps they simply don't see yours as any more remarkable or true than that of anyone else. And in the case of yours, there is plenty of contrary evidence that is readily available and well known to many of the former believers on this board.

I have not studied any of the others, beyond taking a Catholic catechism class, but I believe that many secularists/agnostics/atheists have, and have come to the same conclusions: for each, there is insufficient compelling evidence. They are not just being annoyingly unwilling concerning Mormonism.

Sorry, MG - your chosen belief is just not that special.

Even granted the anomaly, and "uniqueness" of Joseph Smith, I'm not convinced. Uniqueness, per se, is not necessarily an indicator of anything other than uniqueness. "Uniqueness, therefor god" is a pretty weak argument.

I still see nothing that requires the intervention of a god, and clearly the bulk of the rest of the world doesn't see it either. That probably includes a whole bunch of historians who are more familiar with the historical record than you or I are ever likely to be.

Since you seem hung up on the "not to avoid farmwork" idea, let me ask you: what station do you think that Joseph would have reached in life if he had simply pursued farm labouring? Anything remotely resembling revered community leader, military leader, US presidential candidate, 36+ "wives"? People do all sorts of things (including what in retrospect seem like unnecessary or counterproductive effort) to avoid work. The jails are full of people who thought that they could have a comfortable living at the expense of others, and were disappointed to discover that their schemes didn't pan out.

malkie, I’ve been at this long enough to realize that there isn’t any “compelling evidence” to either believe or disbelieve in the traditional Mormon story with the adventure continuing out in SLC. I totally get that. By compelling, I mean definitive. Doc, yourself and others would have had Joseph use either the stone or spectacles to locate the lost 116 pages. I can’t argue that this would have been the preferred method rather than what we observe in the historical record. As it is, we are left between two options. Believe or disbelieve in the traditional explanation or in alternative explanations that lead to disbelief. This is only one example among many where we are left sitting and having to make a REAL choice of who we’re going to serve, who we’re going to believe, and which way we’re going to point ourselves.

The evidence shows that in Joseph’s early life he was sincerely concerned about his standing towards God. I don’t think anyone will dispute that. I also don’t think that most people will dispute the fact that this condition Joseph found himself in drove him into a grove of trees to seek God and forgiveness. It’s from that point on that there are conditionals and roadblocks of one sort or another that leave one in a state of choosing who to trust or not to trust. Each of us will pile up the evidence into stacks of belief in the restoration or disbelief. It’s really that simple. But it’s a real choice.

And those of us building the stacks are invested in building their stacks higher. No doubt about that.

I’m one of those folks who watches/observes both stacks being added to or having material taken away. For me, I have found the stack of reasons to believe to be the more reasonable AND fulfilling in all areas of my life.

Compelling evidence? That will vary from person to person. Fine tuning and abiogenesis? Compelling to some and not to others. Book of Mormon? Same. And the evidence for belief vs. non belief cuts a wide swath. The stacks that we build for belief can be built with reasoned additions to the stack. Same with non belief.

I’ve already mentioned that I default to a creator God. That is obviously going to color my views in regards to the viability of the Mormon story. I am open to twists and turns in the plot line as long as I can see God/Christ as the main characters. So far I haven’t seen any reason to put the story down and replace it with something else.

Your mileage may vary.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

...As it is, we are left between two options. Believe or disbelieve in the traditional explanation or in alternative explanations that lead to disbelief. This is only one example among many where we are left sitting and having to make a REAL choice of who we’re going to serve, who we’re going to believe, and which way we’re going to point ourselves.

here we go again.

The evidence shows that in Joseph’s early life he was sincerely concerned about his standing towards God. I don’t think anyone will dispute that. I also don’t think that most people will dispute the fact that this condition Joseph found himself in drove him into a grove of trees to seek God and forgiveness.

Nope. Many dispute that, including those who point out the lds religion's version is not supported by historical documents.

It’s from that point on that there are conditionals and roadblocks of one sort or another that leave one in a state of choosing who to trust or not to trust. Each of us will pile up the evidence into stacks of belief in the restoration or disbelief.

You really don't seem to understand how evaluation of information works.

And those of us building the stacks are invested in building their stacks higher. No doubt about that.

that I agree with. You are obviously invested in supporting your beliefs, regardless of how much you have to mangle reality to do it.

I’ve already mentioned that I default to a creator God. That is obviously going to color my views in regards to the viability of the Mormon story. I am open to twists and turns in the plot line as long as I can see God/Christ as the main characters. So far I haven’t seen any reason to put the story down and replace it with something else.

Testimony? check. If you left it there, you'd be fine. It's your forays into your insupportable versions of 'evidence' that end up eroding your reputation.

[canpakes]

Since you seem hung up on the "not to avoid farmwork" idea, let me ask you: what station do you think that Joseph would have reached in life if he had simply pursued farm labouring? Anything remotely resembling revered community leader, military leader, US presidential candidate, 36+ "wives"? People do all sorts of things (including what in retrospect seem like unnecessary or counterproductive effort) to avoid work.

Not a bad trade-off for writing a book.

Life was pretty tough back in the mid-1800’s. The payoff that Smith garnered from assembling the Book was remarkable, and certainly no riskier than what any frontier settler had to contend with when living their own lives.

Using that example from D&C 124 again, Smith - within his sequel to the first book - plugged in a command for his followers to build him a house. That’s a whole lot easier than building one yourself.

He followed that up with a method to have multiple wives.

Clever guy. ; )