Peterson the historical skeptic

[canpakes]

Not meaning to be disrespectful, but this argument can just as easily support the idea that he ‘REALLY believed’ that he was not accountable to God.

No, Smith was clearly a Bible believing Christian. It is possible Joseph Smith really believed he was doing the work of god. I think Smith was opportunistic and a pious fraud at the same time.

I can imagine that Smith could have been a solid believer in God and the Bible, but that he also imagined some ‘leeway’ as regards his own perceived accountability to God.

I get that take from Smith’s approach to plural marriage.

He seemed quite capable of rationalizing some divergent and contradictory actions on that and other fronts, when doing so served his purposes.

Note also how he regarded his own place in history.

[MG 2.0]

Go back and read the history…then flesh this out a bit more, would you? Contextualize your comments into the time and place/history of Joseph and his family…and all that was going on.

There’s not much to flesh out, given the simplicity of the action. Smith was protecting his investment.

You may have chosen not to read the historical account as I suggested.

The events surrounding the lost 116 pages illustrate well how the translation process was, in many respects, a truly joint effort for Joseph and Emma and how Emma, too, was deeply invested in the project. The day after Martin left with the 116 pages, Emma gave birth to their first son, who either was stillborn or lived for only a couple of hours. [81] Having undergone a long and extremely difficult labor, Emma’s life was in danger for more than a couple of weeks. As her health improved, Joseph became increasingly anxious about the manuscript, “but he did not mention the subject to Emma for fear of agitating her mind to[o] much for the health of her body.” [82] However, as Lucy Mack Smith reports, Emma—also concerned about the manuscript —told her husband, “I feel so uneasy . . . that I cannot rest and shall not be at ease untill I know something about what Mr Har ris is doing with it do you not think it would be ad visable for you to go and enquire into the reason of his not writing or sending any word back to you since he left us.” [83] Emma’s concern for the manuscript and insistence that Joseph leave her to inquire after it in the face of her own precarious health situation—and devastation over the loss of her first child—says much about her own commitment to the work.
Although many scholars have attributed Emma’s professed concern for the plates to worry about Joseph’s increasing despondency about the state of the manuscript, [84] consideration must also be given to Emma’s own labor in scribing part of the 116 pages and the countless sacrifices she had made to assist in the translation work, as well as Lucy’s statement about Emma’s personal agitation over the manuscript. Additionally, Joseph’s response to Martin when he learns Martin has lost the manuscript speaks to Emma’s deep involvement in the project. “Then must I . . . return to my wife with such a tale as this I dare not do it least I should kill her at once.”[85] Given Emma’s fragile health, Joseph’s words may not have been hyperbolic but rather may demonstrate his actual concern that her health may not have been able to withstand the additional loss of all that they had been working together for. A statement that Emma made at the end of her life, that “[she] was an active participant in the scenes that transpired and was present during the translation of the plates, and had cognizance of things as they transpired” is certainly accurate. [86] And through her witness we gain new knowledge of the translation process and the power in witnesses beyond the visual.

https://rsc.byu.edu/coming-forth-book-m ... on-process

Does this sound like the actions of a couple (Joseph AND Emma) who were merely carrying out a fraud?

This episode occurs after Joseph and Emma had already been forced to move the plates…and themselves…because of those that were out to steal them.

Regards,
MG

[canpakes]

There’s not much to flesh out, given the simplicity of the action. Smith was protecting his investment.

You may have chosen not to read the historical account as I suggested.

The events surrounding the lost 116 pages illustrate well how the translation process was, in many respects, a truly joint effort for Joseph and Emma and how Emma, too, was deeply invested in the project. The day after Martin left with the 116 pages, Emma gave birth to their first son, who either was stillborn or lived for only a couple of hours. [81] Having undergone a long and extremely difficult labor, Emma’s life was in danger for more than a couple of weeks. As her health improved, Joseph became increasingly anxious about the manuscript, “but he did not mention the subject to Emma for fear of agitating her mind to[o] much for the health of her body.” [82] However, as Lucy Mack Smith reports, Emma—also concerned about the manuscript —told her husband, “I feel so uneasy . . . that I cannot rest and shall not be at ease untill I know something about what Mr Har ris is doing with it do you not think it would be ad visable for you to go and enquire into the reason of his not writing or sending any word back to you since he left us.” [83] Emma’s concern for the manuscript and insistence that Joseph leave her to inquire after it in the face of her own precarious health situation—and devastation over the loss of her first child—says much about her own commitment to the work.
Although many scholars have attributed Emma’s professed concern for the plates to worry about Joseph’s increasing despondency about the state of the manuscript, [84] consideration must also be given to Emma’s own labor in scribing part of the 116 pages and the countless sacrifices she had made to assist in the translation work, as well as Lucy’s statement about Emma’s personal agitation over the manuscript. Additionally, Joseph’s response to Martin when he learns Martin has lost the manuscript speaks to Emma’s deep involvement in the project. “Then must I . . . return to my wife with such a tale as this I dare not do it least I should kill her at once.”[85] Given Emma’s fragile health, Joseph’s words may not have been hyperbolic but rather may demonstrate his actual concern that her health may not have been able to withstand the additional loss of all that they had been working together for. A statement that Emma made at the end of her life, that “[she] was an active participant in the scenes that transpired and was present during the translation of the plates, and had cognizance of things as they transpired” is certainly accurate. [86] And through her witness we gain new knowledge of the translation process and the power in witnesses beyond the visual.

https://rsc.byu.edu/coming-forth-book-m ... on-process

Does this sound like the actions of a couple (Joseph AND Emma) who were merely carrying out a fraud?

This episode occurs after Joseph and Emma had already been forced to move the plates…and themselves…because of those that were out to steal them.

Regards,
MG

There’s some interesting conjecture in there regarding what Emma is supposedly reacting to.

That aside, I’m not seeing reason for your inclusion of Emma into the ‘fraud’ scenario. My argument about Smith’s focus and intent doesn’t concern Emma. Emma never saw the plates; closest she got to such may have been moving them as they were wrapped. If the physical plates were a prop then Emma need never to have known it even as Joseph assembled his story, arguably from ‘translation’.

Which leads to the obvious solution: re-translate.

Smith was nervous because his hard work may have been lost. Not because any actual historical record had been lost or stolen. Knowing that he’d have to reproduce something that he already still had a copy of in the original language wouldn’t cause him worry if he actually possessed the source document, whereas exactly recreating something that he constructed partially on the fly would be impossible.

The reason that he eventually presented for supposedly not being able/allowed to retranslate that same record was sort of clever in a desperate kind of way, but it contradicts everything about his stated purpose and role with the Book prior to that event.

[MG 2.0]

It is interesting that Joseph was this ‘outlier’ that accomplished this massive production we call the Book of Mormon. The foresight that he had at the age of seventeen to see the possibilities and be willing to put the WORK into this book so as to hoodwink others into joining his church. And to BELIEVE he was doing the work of God at the same time.

Amazing. No one else did what he did at such a young age and under so much duress and in so little time.

Talk about being goal driven. Again, at seventeen. Simply amazing.

I suppose we can agree on this fact. Joseph was an amazing young man to accomplish what he did. A religious genius.

OK - all of that is quite possible. Geniuses and remarkable people appear all through history. I'm sure that many also appear and disappear without their genius being recognised.

Let’s recognize the nature of Joseph’s genius.

If you haven’t spent the time reading this article by Brian Hales may I suggest you do so. It’s somewhat frustrating posting here because by all appearances there are folks that haven’t done their homework or have consciously decided to ignore it. I hope you’re not one of them.

https://journal.interpreterfoundation.o ... of-Mormon/

What a truly elaborate scheme for a young man to undertake so as to avoid farm work. And as one looks at a number of historical sources, that seems to be an unreasonable assumption to begin with.

Joseph and his early accomplishments with the Book of Mormon are an anomaly to be sure. Emma’s sacrifice and concern with the project (loss of the 116 pages) are, again, worth mentioning. Was it all for gold and fame/power…or was it the work of God? If Joseph was a religious savant above other savants I suppose you might reasonably go the ‘con’ route. But the early evidence of Joseph’s abilities and his lack of formal education doesn’t lend itself to that theory in my opinion.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

There’s some interesting conjecture in there regarding what Emma is supposedly reacting to.

That aside, I’m not seeing reason for your inclusion of Emma into the ‘fraud’ scenario. My argument about Smith’s focus and intent doesn’t concern Emma. Emma never saw the plates; closest she got to such may have been moving them as they were wrapped. If the physical plates were a prop then Emma need never to have known it even as Joseph assembled his story, arguably from ‘translation’.

Which leads to the obvious solution: re-translate.

Smith was nervous because his hard work may have been lost. Not because any actual historical record had been lost or stolen. Knowing that he’d have to reproduce something that he already still had a copy of in the original language wouldn’t cause him worry if he actually possessed the source document, whereas exactly recreating something that he constructed partially on the fly would be impossible.

The reason that he eventually presented for supposedly not being able/allowed to retranslate that same record was sort of clever in a desperate kind of way, but it contradicts everything about his stated purpose and role with the Book prior to that event.

Yes, it does contradict everything else. The reasons given for not "retranslating" are weak, but absolutely necessary if he didn't actually have the originals.

[canpakes]

Let’s recognize the nature of Joseph’s genius.

If you haven’t spent the time reading this article by Brian Hales may I suggest you do so. It’s somewhat frustrating posting here because by all appearances there are folks that haven’t done their homework or have consciously decided to ignore it. I hope you’re not one of them.

https://journal.interpreterfoundation.o ... of-Mormon/

Hales spends some time at the beginning of his article trying to convince the reader that the vocabulary within the Book of Mormon was too far advanced for Joseph’s level of formal education.

OK. Let’s assume for a moment that the gold plates were real.

If the Book was an actual record of ancient pre-Columbian people, then how is it that their words all reflect a level of education that exceeds a young adult of the early 1800’s? Is that a reasonable assumption for all claimed ancient authors of the Book?

Perhaps the educational system in Nephi’s day was astoundingly good. ; )

Or, perhaps Smith’s language use has simpler explanations - such as exposure to commonly-available religious texts as well as other competent folks who possessed similar or better knowledge.

Mentors weren’t exactly an unknown phenomenon back then, were they?

What a truly elaborate scheme for a young man to undertake so as to avoid farm work.

Again - why? Was Smith not known for being a story teller? Did he not display that ability as a youngster, and even as he led some folks on ‘treasure hunts’?

[drumdude]

Was it all for gold and fame/power

Apparently it was at the very least for extramarital sex. The desires of flesh are a powerful motivator, they certainly were in Joe.

[MG 2.0]

I’m not seeing reason for your inclusion of Emma into the ‘fraud’ scenario.

It seems rather obvious to me. Joseph and Emma both have immediate concerns about the fact that Martin had not returned with the manuscript. The million dollar question is WHY? This is a concern separate from bringing up retranslating and such. The fact is they were VERY worried, at least according to them, about their standing before God. Joseph had practically begged the Lord to let Martin take the plates to appease his wife. Three weeks later, and no word. Emma is still struggling in her health related to her miscarriage.

Why even make the trip to visit Martin at all?

The whole story of the plates and the hiding and moving them around decreases rather than increases the likelihood of fraud in my estimation. You folks have to put layer upon layer of ‘distrust’ to come away with the fraud scenario. I’ve been there, done that. After my studies I came away with the realization that it was a LOT less complicated to go with the written record that supports the traditional account of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

...Or, perhaps Smith’s language use has simpler explanations - such as exposure to commonly-available religious texts as well as other competent folks who possessed similar or better knowledge.

According to the Hale article, "the Book of Mormon Lexile score is 1150, which correlates to an eighth-grade reading level..." The KJV Bible has a score of 1000, which also is in the 8th grade range of 985-1295.

Curiously, Hale fails to mention this. Given that somewhere in the neighborhood of 15% of the Book of Mormon is plagiarized from the kjv Bible, it seems odd he would not comment on this obvious influence.

[MG 2.0]

Let’s recognize the nature of Joseph’s genius.

If you haven’t spent the time reading this article by Brian Hales may I suggest you do so. It’s somewhat frustrating posting here because by all appearances there are folks that haven’t done their homework or have consciously decided to ignore it. I hope you’re not one of them.

https://journal.interpreterfoundation.o ... of-Mormon/

Hales spends some time at the beginning of his article trying to convince the reader that the vocabulary within the Book of Mormon was too far advanced for Joseph’s level of formal education.

OK. Let’s assume for a moment that the gold plates were real.

If the Book was an actual record of ancient pre-Columbian people, then how is it that their words all reflect a level of education that exceeds a young adult of the early 1800’s? Is that a reasonable assumption for all claimed ancient authors of the Book?

Perhaps the educational system in Nephi’s day was astoundingly good. ; )

Or, perhaps Smith’s language use has simpler explanations - such as exposure to commonly-available religious texts as well as other competent folks who possessed similar or better knowledge.

Mentors weren’t exactly an unknown phenomenon back then, were they?

What a truly elaborate scheme for a young man to undertake so as to avoid farm work.

Again - why? Was Smith not known for being a story teller? Did he not display that ability as a youngster, and even as he led some folks on ‘treasure hunts’?

As I mentioned in my previous post, at the end of the day it becomes a question of who are you going to trust and what sources are you going to believe. I’ve been around the block MANY times. I think I’ve seen the lion’s share of what there is to see. I have ‘with intent’ tried to keep balanced in my approach. As a result of taking this approach…for me…the balance scales tip in favor of Joseph Smith not being a fraud. First vision right up to martyrdom. Not being a fraud is NOT synonymous with being a perfect man.

Joseph had his faults. As did Brigham Young and other prophets throughout the ages.

In my mind as I read the history of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon I find that the traditional story/history from favorable sources outweighs the conspiracy/con scenario. And we could, as I said earlier, argue until the cows come home with no real hope of resolving anything. You’ll go your way and I’ll go mine.

It is important, however, to keep the conversation alive.

Thanks for your input canpakes.

By the way, do you think Joseph Smith, if he were alive today, would be diagnosed as a savant? Or would you expect him to be of average intelligence?

Regards,
MG