Peterson the historical skeptic

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drumdude
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Peterson the historical skeptic

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”DCP” wrote: Exactly a year ago today, a group of patriotic tourists who hoped only to make America great again decided to visit the seat of our federal government, the Capitol of the United States, in order to look around and, in some cases, to express their concern about the massive election fraud that was about to hand the White House over to one Joseph R. Biden, a Communist who had actually lost by a landslide to the incumbent president. Unfortunately, a handful of Black Lives Matter radicals were interspersed among the patriots, as well as (it seems) a number of agents provocateurs who had been sent by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) on behalf of the Deep State, or the Illuminati, or the Bilderbergers, or the Rothschilds, or some sort of pedophile ring. Upon their arrival at the Capitol, those interspersed troublemakers began to misbehave in order to draw the wrath of the Capitol Police down upon the patriots among whom they were scattered. Unfortunately, the plot worked. True American patriots were barred from the People’ House and, as a result, Vice President Mike Pence, feeling no obligation or pressure now to reflect the views of actual legitimate voters, declined to save our republic.
I’m glad DCP understands how ridiculous this story is. But I have another ridiculous story for him, courtesy of the great John Larsen:

John: "We came into the land, which we call Bountiful," in verse five. "There was much fruit and wild honey, and all these things were prepared of the Lord that we might not perish. And we beheld the sea, which we called, uh, ifrghjfmu[mumble]" [Laughter] And we pitched our tents. Okay. And verse eight: "And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto me, saying: Thou shalt construct a ship, after the manner which I shall show thee, that I may carry thy people across these waters. And I said: Lord, whither shall I go that I may find ore to molten, that I may make tools to construct the ship after the manner which thou hast shown unto me?"
John: Not a bad start, not exactly the right starting point, but it's not a bad start. "And it came to pass that the Lord told me whither I should go to find ore, that I might make tools." Okay.

John: And then verse 11, "And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did make a bellows." [Long pause]

John: ...Good... good. [Chuckles all around] You do need bellows, in fact, to make tools. Good on ya, Nephi.

John: Um, "to blow the fire, of the skins of beasts; and after I had made a bellows, that I might have wherewith to blow the fire, I did smite two stones together!"

John: Also very important in blacksmithing, to start the damned fire! [Laughter] A very important first step... to start the fire. Very important.

Randy: It's interesting, the focus on details here, but the complete lack later on.

John: Yeah, because we know that they had bellows!
John: "And it came to pass that I did make tools of the ore which I did molten out of the rock." Verse 16. And then his brothers see that he's about to make a ship and they start to make fun of him.

John: Okay, so we'll get back into it, but I have narrowed down the steps, and I'm going to simplify it—the steps to actually build a transoceanic vessel. Let's talk about tools first.

John: Nephi actually has a bigger problem. The Lord shows him where there is iron ore because, let's be clear, we have to make a boat that is going to survive in a saltwater environment for quite some time. Gold, silver and copper will not do. They will not hold the boat together. He's got to be talking about iron. Right? Anybody disagree? We have any apologists with us tonight to disagree?

Megan: Actually, I'm going to disagree a little bit. Sorry, I'm an archaeologist so I do this pedantic thing. Iron's not the best... but it was the best he could have come up with.
John: Okay. Yeah.

Megan: Because he's not doing alloy, not doing titanium alloy—bronze or something like that. That might be a slightly better solution.

John: Okay. So he's got to get this iron out of the mountains. And these aren't like the pit miners up in Michigan where there are Indians who are digging iron out of the ground. That's not the way iron would be found in the Sinai peninsula. So he's got a bigger problem, which is, okay, he walks up this hill—remember he's been out of Jerusalem for eight years—and he identifies the fact that he needs tools. He doesn't say, "dear Lord, you had us take this big damned load of tools around with us in the desert for eight years. What am I supposed to do with them?" It was, "No, I need tools."

John: So he climbs up this mountain, and he finds an iron seam... now what does he do?

Randy: That though is our middle level miracle, right? It's improbable, but still possible. So I can accept that one and move on with the story.

Terrell: The fact that he climbed the mountain? [Laughter]

Randy: Just, that he happened to find an exposed seam of ore.

Terrell: All right.

John: So what's he going to do to get the seam of iron out of the mountain!? Because we already know that he doesn't have any tools! Because he needs tools in order to build the boat! So he goes to find the iron in order to build the tools, which he clearly does not have, but without tools you can't mine the damned iron out of the mountain!

What is more likely, that powerful deep state forces started a riot at the capitol, or that a couple Bronze Age Jews single-handedly built a transoceanic vessel on a beach?

I can get behind the ship, but the deep state? That’s way too far out for me man! :lol:
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Re: Peterson the historical skeptic

Post by Moksha »

Pretty courageous of Dr. Peterson to thumb his nose at his Trump-loving donors. Hope he will be safe when his fellow Oremites break out their assault rifles in support of the revolution to anoint Trump as dictator for life.
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Re: Peterson the historical skeptic

Post by Kishkumen »

”DCP” wrote: Exactly a year ago today, a group of patriotic tourists who hoped only to make America great again decided to visit the seat of our federal government, the Capitol of the United States, in order to look around and, in some cases, to express their concern about the massive election fraud that was about to hand the White House over to one Joseph R. Biden, a Communist who had actually lost by a landslide to the incumbent president. Unfortunately, a handful of Black Lives Matter radicals were interspersed among the patriots, as well as (it seems) a number of agents provocateurs who had been sent by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) on behalf of the Deep State, or the Illuminati, or the Bilderbergers, or the Rothschilds, or some sort of pedophile ring. Upon their arrival at the Capitol, those interspersed troublemakers began to misbehave in order to draw the wrath of the Capitol Police down upon the patriots among whom they were scattered. Unfortunately, the plot worked. True American patriots were barred from the People’ House and, as a result, Vice President Mike Pence, feeling no obligation or pressure now to reflect the views of actual legitimate voters, declined to save our republic.
Kudos to Dr. Peterson. I am sad that Mike Pence joined the Illuminati!

;) :lol:
I’m glad DCP understands how ridiculous this story is. But I have another ridiculous story for him, courtesy of the great John Larsen:

John: "We came into the land, which we call Bountiful," in verse five. "There was much fruit and wild honey, and all these things were prepared of the Lord that we might not perish. And we beheld the sea, which we called, uh, ifrghjfmu[mumble]" [Laughter] And we pitched our tents. Okay. And verse eight: "And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto me, saying: Thou shalt construct a ship, after the manner which I shall show thee, that I may carry thy people across these waters. And I said: Lord, whither shall I go that I may find ore to molten, that I may make tools to construct the ship after the manner which thou hast shown unto me?"
John: Not a bad start, not exactly the right starting point, but it's not a bad start. "And it came to pass that the Lord told me whither I should go to find ore, that I might make tools." Okay.

John: And then verse 11, "And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did make a bellows." [Long pause]

John: ...Good... good. [Chuckles all around] You do need bellows, in fact, to make tools. Good on ya, Nephi.

John: Um, "to blow the fire, of the skins of beasts; and after I had made a bellows, that I might have wherewith to blow the fire, I did smite two stones together!"

John: Also very important in blacksmithing, to start the damned fire! [Laughter] A very important first step... to start the fire. Very important.

Randy: It's interesting, the focus on details here, but the complete lack later on.

John: Yeah, because we know that they had bellows!
John: "And it came to pass that I did make tools of the ore which I did molten out of the rock." Verse 16. And then his brothers see that he's about to make a ship and they start to make fun of him.

John: Okay, so we'll get back into it, but I have narrowed down the steps, and I'm going to simplify it—the steps to actually build a transoceanic vessel. Let's talk about tools first.

John: Nephi actually has a bigger problem. The Lord shows him where there is iron ore because, let's be clear, we have to make a boat that is going to survive in a saltwater environment for quite some time. Gold, silver and copper will not do. They will not hold the boat together. He's got to be talking about iron. Right? Anybody disagree? We have any apologists with us tonight to disagree?

Megan: Actually, I'm going to disagree a little bit. Sorry, I'm an archaeologist so I do this pedantic thing. Iron's not the best... but it was the best he could have come up with.
John: Okay. Yeah.

Megan: Because he's not doing alloy, not doing titanium alloy—bronze or something like that. That might be a slightly better solution.

John: Okay. So he's got to get this iron out of the mountains. And these aren't like the pit miners up in Michigan where there are Indians who are digging iron out of the ground. That's not the way iron would be found in the Sinai peninsula. So he's got a bigger problem, which is, okay, he walks up this hill—remember he's been out of Jerusalem for eight years—and he identifies the fact that he needs tools. He doesn't say, "dear Lord, you had us take this big damned load of tools around with us in the desert for eight years. What am I supposed to do with them?" It was, "No, I need tools."

John: So he climbs up this mountain, and he finds an iron seam... now what does he do?

Randy: That though is our middle level miracle, right? It's improbable, but still possible. So I can accept that one and move on with the story.

Terrell: The fact that he climbed the mountain? [Laughter]

Randy: Just, that he happened to find an exposed seam of ore.

Terrell: All right.

John: So what's he going to do to get the seam of iron out of the mountain!? Because we already know that he doesn't have any tools! Because he needs tools in order to build the boat! So he goes to find the iron in order to build the tools, which he clearly does not have, but without tools you can't mine the damned iron out of the mountain!

What is more likely, that powerful deep state forces started a riot at the capitol, or that a couple Bronze Age Jews single-handedly built a transoceanic vessel on a beach?

I can get behind the ship, but the deep state? That’s way too far out for me man! :lol:
Well, Axial Age, but yeah. There is another incredible story that is found in the Bible. It is the myth of Noah's Flood. The Book of Mormon story is just a tale following the model of Noah's Flood. I feel badly for all the people who see it as literal history or make fun of it as though that were the only way to read it.
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Re: Peterson the historical skeptic

Post by Chap »

Kishkumen wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 3:50 pm
The Book of Mormon story is just a tale following the model of Noah's Flood. I feel badly for all the people who see it as literal history or make fun of it as though that were the only way to read it.
That is a nice humane way of putting it. (And that is not intended as in any way a denigration or mockery of what you wrote)

The problem with your approach seems to me to be that it ignores the history of the text. Writing a text is an act, and those who act have intentions, and wish to produce certain effects. The Book of Mormon was written by a man who, in the light of what he wrote, said and did, clearly wanted his readers to take the contents of the book he wrote as being a truly ancient and authentic text, which recounted events that really happened in the ancient Americas. When Smith's early followers took it 'as literal history', they were doing exactly what he intended them to do.
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Re: Peterson the historical skeptic

Post by Kishkumen »

Chap wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:06 pm
That is a nice humane way of putting it. (And that is not intended as in any way a denigration or mockery of what you wrote)

The problem with your approach seems to me to be that it ignores the history of the text. Writing a text is an act, and those who act have intentions, and wish to produce certain effects. The Book of Mormon was written by a man who, in the light of what he wrote, said and did, clearly wanted his readers to take the contents of the book he wrote as being a truly ancient and authentic text, which recounted events that really happened in the ancient Americas. When Smith's early followers took it 'as literal history', they were doing exactly what he intended them to do.
I appreciate your point of view on this, and I get it. Here's the thing: Who knows exactly what was in the mind of the Biblical writers? Who feels completely beholden to the lost intentions of the writers of those texts? A text is written, and it is there to be interpreted. It will be interpreted in ways that have little to do with the precise intentions of the author at the time it was written. What amuses me is that people who make fun of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon in this way impose their own limited and fallible interpretation of the history and the text as though they really have it figured out while other people who value you it are obviously deficient in some way for doing so.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Re: Peterson the historical skeptic

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Chap wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:06 pm
* * * Writing a text is an act, and those who act have intentions, and wish to produce certain effects. The Book of Mormon was written by a man who, in the light of what he wrote, said and did, clearly wanted his readers to take the contents of the book he wrote as being a truly ancient and authentic text, which recounted events that really happened in the ancient Americas. When Smith's early followers took it 'as literal history', they were doing exactly what he intended them to do.
THE
Book of Mormon:
AN ACCOUNT WRITTEN BY THE HAND OF Mormon, UPON
PLATES TAKEN FROM THE PLATES OF NEPHI.

Wherefore it is an abridgment of the Record of the People of Nephi; and also of the Lamanites; written to the Lamanites, which are a remnant of the House of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile; written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of Prophesy and of Revelation. Written, and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed; to come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof; sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by the way of Gentile; the interpretation thereof by the gift of God; an abridgment taken from the Book of Ether.
Also, which is a Record of the People of Jared, which were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people when they were building a tower to get to Heaven: which is to shew unto the remnant of the House of Israel how great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever; and also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting Himself unto all nations. And now if there be fault, it be the mistake of men; wherefore condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment seat of Christ.

BY JOSEPH SMITH, JUNIOR,
AUTHOR AND PROPRIETOR.

PALMYRA:
PRINTED BY E. B. GRANDIN, FOR THE AUTHOR.
1830.
If it wasn't as you describe, it rather reminds me of the Blair Witch movie.
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Re: Peterson the historical skeptic

Post by NorthboundZax »

I have to think we'd all be better off supporting Dr. Peterson's endeavor of taking on the absurdness of Trumpism and its damage to democracy rather than putting him on the defensive of his own absurdities when he does that. It is going to take conservative voices for conservatives to really fathom the damage being done to democracy in their name - let's encourage that!
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Re: Peterson the historical skeptic

Post by huckelberry »

NorthboundZax wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:08 pm
I have to think we'd all be better off supporting Dr. Peterson's endeavor of taking on the absurdness of Trumpism and its damage to democracy rather than putting him on the defensive of his own absurdities when he does that. It is going to take conservative voices for conservatives to really fathom the damage being done to democracy in their name - let's encourage that!
This comment makes a lot of sense to me. In the opening post I felt pressure to see the Book of Mormon story in a positive light due to the comparison.
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Re: Peterson the historical skeptic

Post by Chap »

Kishkumen wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:31 pm
Chap wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:06 pm
That is a nice humane way of putting it. (And that is not intended as in any way a denigration or mockery of what you wrote)

The problem with your approach seems to me to be that it ignores the history of the text. Writing a text is an act, and those who act have intentions, and wish to produce certain effects. The Book of Mormon was written by a man who, in the light of what he wrote, said and did, clearly wanted his readers to take the contents of the book he wrote as being a truly ancient and authentic text, which recounted events that really happened in the ancient Americas. When Smith's early followers took it 'as literal history', they were doing exactly what he intended them to do.
I appreciate your point of view on this, and I get it. Here's the thing: Who knows exactly what was in the mind of the Biblical writers? Who feels completely beholden to the lost intentions of the writers of those texts? A text is written, and it is there to be interpreted. It will be interpreted in ways that have little to do with the precise intentions of the author at the time it was written. What amuses me is that people who make fun of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon in this way impose their own limited and fallible interpretation of the history and the text as though they really have it figured out while other people who value you it are obviously deficient in some way for doing so.
One of the jobs of historians is to do the best they can to come to a rational and evidence-based estimate of "the lost intentions of the writers of those texts [that serve as their sources]". That's a difficult task, certainly, but I don't think it is always a hopeless one.

And coming to a rational and evidence-based estimate of the intentions of Joseph Smith, a man who lived in a social and intellectual environment about which we are vastly better informed that we are (say) about that of Deutero-Isaiah, and who wrote and spoke copiously about how he saw his role, is by no means an entirely impossible task.

Of course we are not obliged to receive the text as Smith almost certainly wanted us to receive it - a true record of ancient events in the Americas. We can use it for any purpose we wish - a moral fable, or an interesting study of early 19th century religious imagination, or as a textbook example of a relatively successful fraud, that brought its perpetrator power, relative riches, and access to rather a lot of young women.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
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Re: Peterson the historical skeptic

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

I think it’s case closed with regard to Joseph Smith.

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Historians. Linguists. Whatever. It’s endless absurdities, and to choose to believe in absurdities is what leads us down the path to atrocious behavior such as Mormon sex trafficking, MMM, and an obscene investment fund that Smaug would envy.

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Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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