Peterson the historical skeptic

[Marcus]

But to start out from day one? The evidence that he was in some kind of a dark place with evil designs at age 17 into his early twenties is non existent. Unless you want to count a Smith family magical world view as being evil and benighted leading Joseph into cahoots with the Dark Lord. Or that being a typical teenager was leading him down the primrose path to hell.

Joseph loved Emma from day one. Promoting a theory that he was leading her along from day one of their courtship towards an eventual con is something that you would have to show some pretty heavy proof/evidence. Good luck with that. Otherwise we ought to take Joseph and Emma at their word/actions that they loved each other and their family.

Regards,
MG

Once again you are ignoring the bulk of my reply to your question. You are also setting up a straw man argument. I certainly did not say anything like "that he was in some kind of a dark place with evil designs at age 17", which your out of context quote seems to imply.

Nor am I "Promoting a theory that he was leading her along from day one of their courtship towards an eventual con ...". I was talking about a starting point for his lies.

Here is what I did say, in response to your dramatic question: "At what point in Joseph’s life did he go to the ‘dark side’?":

Hmmm, I never thought about it that way before, but, if pressed, my guess would be his initial tale about the first vision could have been a significant starting point.

After that, I believe that Shakespeare has the answer - he wove a tangled web, with ever more lies needed to support the ones already told.

Eventually he got to the point where he was deceiving the so-called love of his life, as has already been well attested to.

Just my opinion, of course, but thanks for the prompt.

That is, like several others at that time and in that place he told a story about an encounter with god. No need for a "long con" to be in his mind at that point. A short con could have been enough to get him started.

To try to maintain the story that he had started, he improvised with more "stories".

Eventually it got to the point that he had to start lying to Emma about his extramarital adventures. And I believe there is no doubt that he did lie to her.

Perhaps if you were to write more plainly, without all of the drama of "dark place with evil designs", and "leading Joseph into cahoots with the Dark Lord" it would be easier for all concerned to have a productive discussion.

Or perhaps the fault is mine for not restating your question without all of the drama.

Nah, you were pretty clear, Malkie. Smith definitely got to a point where he had to lie to Emma to continue. That had to have been a difficult time for her.

[MG 2.0]

Although Emma may have wanted to engage more, haha. She had to write down everything he said without her interjection/ correction. ...

Posted by mentalgymnast. Ha. ha.

In context:

In regards to your other question, I think it was Dan Vogel that said Joseph was the ‘main man’ during the translation. Not much, if any, help from the scribes. Although Emma may have wanted to engage more, haha. She had to write down everything he said without her interjection/correction.

Are you married?

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

Posted by mentalgymnast. Ha. ha.

In context:

In regards to your other question, I think it was Dan Vogel that said Joseph was the ‘main man’ during the translation. Not much, if any, help from the scribes. Although Emma may have wanted to engage more, haha. She had to write down everything he said without her interjection/correction.

Are you married?

Regards,
MG

You think more "context" helps your dumb joke? Are YOU married?

[MG 2.0]

Smith definitely got to a point where he had to lie to Emma to continue. That had to have been a difficult time for her.

There were conflicts. You’ve read the Clayton Journal? There was apparently some wheeling and dealing that went on between Joseph and Emma.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

We’re talking about Joseph’s early years leading up to and including the Book of Mormon translation period. He wasn’t an idiot. You know that I don’t think that. But Emma verifies that he was in no wise a savant either.

So you’re left back at square one. How did Joseph do what he did at such a young age and under the circumstances he was living in?

https://interpreterfoundation.org/estim ... vidence-1/

I think we may be moving into the ‘talking in circles’ phase of this discussion.

Regards,
MG

Moving into?

Mentalgymnastics began on page 5. Circular talking is their specialty.

[MG 2.0]

You think more "context" helps your dumb joke? Are YOU married?

Yes.

Different strokes for different folks.

I don’t think you’re married.

Oh, by the way, I’m not being chauvinistic.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Mentalgymnastics began on page 5. Circular talking is their specialty.

I’ll check at another time to see if there is anything worth responding to.

This is dull.

Later.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

You think more "context" helps your dumb joke? Are YOU married?

Yes.

Different strokes for different folks.

I don’t think you’re married.

Oh, by the way, I’m not being chauvinistic.

Regards,
MG

uh-huh. Sure, mentalgymnast.

Although Emma may have wanted to engage more, haha. She had to write down everything he said without her interjection/ correction. ...

[canpakes]

The fact is, which I think is indisputable, Joseph loved Emma.

I’m not so sure that the idea, “Joseph loved Emma, therefore, the Book of Mormon is true” has enough going for it.

[IHAQ]

The fact is, which I think is indisputable, Joseph loved Emma.

I’m not so sure that the idea, “Joseph loved Emma, therefore, the Book of Mormon is true” has enough going for it.

Joseph loved Emma?
Joseph stole Emma from her family, coercing her to elope with him.
Joseph banged his teenage servant in the barn.
He seduced two sisters who were placed in his household for him to act as their guardian.
He married women behind Emma’s back.
He mentally abused Emma by pretending God wanted him to take multiple wives, that God wanted Emma to STFU about it, and that Emma was to remain monogamous.
Amongst other abuses.

Joseph loved Emma? Don’t make me laugh. Ignore what he said and wrote and consider what he actually did, his actions. Emma was the victim of an abusive husband. Joseph Smith was a serial predator and misogynist. The only person he loved was himself.