Peterson the historical skeptic

[canpakes]

I’m not seeing reason for your inclusion of Emma into the ‘fraud’ scenario.

It seems rather obvious to me. Joseph and Emma both have immediate concerns about the fact that Martin had not returned with the manuscript. The million dollar question is WHY? This is a concern separate from bringing up retranslating and such. The fact is they were VERY worried, at least according to them, about their standing before God.

Emma could have been very worried about her standing before God if she believed Joseph’s story to be genuine and true, regardless of whether or not it actually was.

Joseph would, on the other hand, be crapping bricks over the realization that he would never be able to duplicate his creation, because he was not translating from an existing record. This was a huge problem for him and his story.

Joseph had practically begged the Lord to let Martin take the plates to appease his wife.

Why would Smith ever be begging with the Lord to appease Lucy Harris?

Why even make the trip to visit Martin at all?

“Umm … Lucy … can I have that manuscript back? Pleeassee ..??!?

The whole story of the plates and the hiding and moving them around decreases rather than increases the likelihood of fraud in my estimation.

I understand that perspective, given as I have many LDS acquaintances. On the other hand, not having been exposed to the LDS rationale, the simpler conclusion is that it would be very necessary to hide something - and keep it from being seen by anyone, including one’s wife - if it was not what it was claimed to be.

You folks have to put layer upon layer of ‘distrust’ to come away with the fraud scenario. I’ve been there, done that. After my studies I came away with the realization that it was a LOT less complicated to go with the written record that supports the traditional account of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon.

The story that you are sticking with here is a lot more complicated than the one I’m proposing.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

There’s some interesting conjecture in there regarding what Emma is supposedly reacting to.

That aside, I’m not seeing reason for your inclusion of Emma into the ‘fraud’ scenario. My argument about Smith’s focus and intent doesn’t concern Emma. Emma never saw the plates; closest she got to such may have been moving them as they were wrapped. If the physical plates were a prop then Emma need never to have known it even as Joseph assembled his story, arguably from ‘translation’.

Which leads to the obvious solution: re-translate.

Smith was nervous because his hard work may have been lost. Not because any actual historical record had been lost or stolen. Knowing that he’d have to reproduce something that he already still had a copy of in the original language wouldn’t cause him worry if he actually possessed the source document, whereas exactly recreating something that he constructed partially on the fly would be impossible.

The reason that he eventually presented for supposedly not being able/allowed to retranslate that same record was sort of clever in a desperate kind of way, but it contradicts everything about his stated purpose and role with the Book prior to that event.

Yes, it does contradict everything else. The reasons given for not "retranslating" are weak, but absolutely necessary if he didn't actually have the originals.

As soon as Joseph Smith discovered the manuscript was gone, he could’ve simply pulled out his seer stones and found out where they were. Like, literally, “Martin, don’t sweat it. I gots dem seer stones.”

A day later later, “Yo, Martin. Yo’ vexatious woman stuffed the manuscript inside the butter churner that’s in yo’ barn, yo. She be trippin’, and imma bout put a curse on her uppity ass.”

Martin be like, “Yo brutha Smith. You were right, yo. Here they are. Lucy for real trippin’.”

It’s so mind boggling stupid, the whole affair. If you have magical oracle stones that show you where treasures are at, translates ancient languages into 19th century English, and, I dunno, does other stuff that’s super neat, wouldn’t it follow that as soon as the manuscript goes missing you just whip them out, throw them into your hat, stuff your face into the hat, and then see where they’re at?

Let me guess, a mentally incapacitated Mormon will just larp out some excuse once he thinks about it for two seconds.

-_-

- Doc

[drumdude]

Yes, it does contradict everything else. The reasons given for not "retranslating" are weak, but absolutely necessary if he didn't actually have the originals.

As soon as Joseph Smith discovered the manuscript was gone, he could’ve simply pulled out his seer stones and found out where they were. Like, literally, “Martin, don’t sweat it. I gots dem seer stones.”

A day later later, “Yo, Martin. Yo’ vexatious woman stuffed the manuscript inside the butter churner that’s in yo’ barn, yo. She be trippin’, and imma bout put a curse on her uppity ass.”

Martin be like, “Yo brutha Smith. You were right, yo. Here they are. Lucy for real trippin’.”

It’s so mind boggling stupid, the whole affair. If you have magical oracle stones that show you where treasures are at, translates ancient languages into 19th century English, and, I dunno, does other stuff that’s super neat, wouldn’t it follow that as soon as the manuscript goes missing you just whip them out, throw them into your hat, stuff your face into the hat, and then see where they’re at?

Let me guess, a mentally incapacitated Mormon will just larp out some excuse once he thinks about it for two seconds.

-_-

- Doc

Lucy Harris Smart Smart Smart Smart Smart Smart, Joseph Smith Dum

[canpakes]

As I mentioned in my previous post, at the end of the day it becomes a question of who are you going to trust and what sources are you going to believe. I’ve been around the block MANY times. I think I’ve seen the lion’s share of what there is to see. I have ‘with intent’ tried to keep balanced in my approach. As a result of taking this approach…for me…the balance scales tip in favor of Joseph Smith not being a fraud. First vision right up to martyrdom. Not being a fraud is NOT synonymous with being a perfect man.

Joseph had his faults. As did Brigham Young and other prophets throughout the ages.

In my mind as I read the history of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon I find that the traditional story/history from favorable sources outweighs the conspiracy/con scenario. And we could, as I said earlier, argue until the cows come home with no real hope of resolving anything. You’ll go your way and I’ll go mine.

It is important, however, to keep the conversation alive.

Thanks for your input canpakes.

Testimony noted. And that’s OK. I’m not here to convince you of anything. : )

By the way, do you think Joseph Smith, if he were alive today, would be diagnosed as a savant? Or would you expect him to be of average intelligence?

Were he alive today, I’d probably regard him as more intelligent than typical, but that characterization is highly subjective and context-dependent. I’m sure that I would regard him as creative. But, given the differences in general public knowledge and availability of resources in the present day and absent the sort of religious revivalism present in his, I don’t think that the Book of Mormon, as a modern creation, would get much - if any - traction.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

by the way, with regard to Joseph Smith’s ‘savant-ness’:



Religious grifters are a dime a dozen and are worth billions. You should see some of their sermons; it’s like gilded angel crap gently floating to earth from upon high. Using MG’s metrics, these people are most definitely twoo.

- Doc

[canpakes]

If you have magical oracle stones that show you where treasures are at, translates ancient languages into 19th century English, and, I dunno, does other stuff that’s super neat, wouldn’t it follow that as soon as the manuscript goes missing you just whip them out, throw them into your hat, stuff your face into the hat, and then see where they’re at?

Imagine what a faith-inspiring event that would have been. I think that even Lucy would have been on board, after such a demonstration.
; )

[IHAQ]

By the way, do you think Joseph Smith, if he were alive today, would be diagnosed as a savant? Or would you expect him to be of average intelligence?

Were he alive today, I’d probably regard him as more intelligent than typical, but that characterization is highly subjective and content-dependent. I’m sure that I would regard him as creative. But, given the differences in general public knowledge and availability of resources in the present day and absent the sort of religious revivalism present in his, I don’t think that the Book of Mormon, as a modern creation, would get much - if any - traction.

Were Joseph Smith alive today he’d be living in the same community as the followers of Warren Jeffs.

[IHAQ]

If you have magical oracle stones that show you where treasures are at, translates ancient languages into 19th century English, and, I dunno, does other stuff that’s super neat, wouldn’t it follow that as soon as the manuscript goes missing you just whip them out, throw them into your hat, stuff your face into the hat, and then see where they’re at?

Imagine what a faith-inspiring event that would have been. I think that even Lucy would have been on board, after such a demonstration.
; )

The Church has the seer stone, but Prophets don’t use it. Why not? What are they afraid of?

[drumdude]

Imagine what a faith-inspiring event that would have been. I think that even Lucy would have been on board, after such a demonstration.
; )

The Church has the seer stone, but Prophets don’t use it. Why not? What are they afraid of?

Joseph was a prophet of a certain dispensation, that dispensation is over which is why prophets are now CEOs.

[IHAQ]

The Church has the seer stone, but Prophets don’t use it. Why not? What are they afraid of?

Joseph was a prophet of a certain dispensation, that dispensation is over which is why prophets are now CEOs.

Yep, they put their faces into spreadsheets and P&L accounts these days…