Mormonism Live - The Two Seconds Watsons letter theory

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Even with the fax from Carla Ogden, Dr. Hamblin omitted the final four words which would have weakened his position, and then claimed it was from a letter by F. Michael Watson rather than a 1-page fax cover by Carla Ogden. Since apparently copies of Carla's fax were photocopied and passed around, others must have known of Dr. Hamblin's deception but kept quiet due to the Lying for the Lord doctrine in the Unwritten Rules on page one.

Not that Carla would remember or even talk , did anyone try to contact her?

I did via email*. She didn’t respond.

* eta: It might’ve been via Facebook. It was a while ago, so I don’t recall the medium. I explained what was happening, and if she recalled faxing anyone at BYU anything on the question of the Hill Cumoran.

-Doc

[malkie]

Sort of related:

A couple of years ago I emailed the people in charge of the Hill Cumorah visitors' center to ask if this was indeed the hill mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

They never replied. Not that I blame them.

If you want deniability, don't put it in writing.

[drumdude]

"A" Carla Ogden passed away in 2019:

https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/de ... id=2061103

Carla Jean Ogden
Salt Lake/Richfield
Carla Jean Ogden, 74, passed away, September 17, 2019 in Murray.. Carla was born January 12, 1945 in Richfield, the oldest daughter of Carl Foy and Jean Marie Sperry Ogden.She is survived by her sisters: Kathleen (Jim) Hepner and Sandra Kaye (Morris) Morgan.
A memorial service will be held September 21, 2019 at 9:30 a.m. in Edgehill Ward Chapel, 1500 East, Blaine Avenue, Salt Lake City. Graveside services will be held 4:30 p.m. at the Richfield Cemetery, 800 North Main, Richfield, Utah. Funeral Directors: Magleby Mortuary, Richfield. Full obituary at www.maglebymortuary.com

[Tom]

Here is a 2009 post from Dr. Peterson I wish to archive (I’ll be sending it to a Cassius archivist shortly).

So irritated have I become by repeated accusations that I'm a liar or that I'm losing my mind, that I actually did call the Office of the First Presidency yesterday, and a secretary there was kind enough to search through their records for me. I gave her the 1993 date. This was fine, she said, since the records of their correspondence go back to 1987. When she called back, though, she said that she was unable to find any such letter on that date in 1993, or on any date in the vicinity, although she had looked under Hamblin, Hall, and FARMS. I found this extremely puzzling, and so, she said, did she, because, she told me, the language I had reported to her sounds very much like a standard letter that they have sent out for many years now.

So I wrote to Bill and asked him, again, whether there was any chance that I was misremembering. My memory on certain things was distinct: I knew that I had seen and read and held the letter, and that it was a letter, and that it was a letter from Michael Watson.

As I've said before, though, I wasn't clear as to exactly how Professor Hamblin had made contact with Michael Watson. I had assumed that he had written to him shortly before I saw the letter, but I was always a bit hazy on that.

Now (cue drum roll), Professor Hamblin has just surprised me with something that I hadn't known, and hadn't suspected: "You are senile," he writes from Cordoba, Spain (my emphasis). "I published the letter in 1993. However, I received it while still in graduate school =before 1985."

This will certainly give rise to a whole new flurry of accusations of deception, incompetence, and etc. The Maxwell Institute is about to fall, and blah blah blah. I'm sure I'll be accused of lying, as will Professor Hamblin. We're only in it for the money. We'll say absolutely anything, because we have no integrity, etc., and etc.

I simply report the facts as they are known (or become known) to me.

According to Wikipedia, F. Michael Watson was secretary to the First Presidency from 1986 until his call as a General Authority in 2008, but had served as an assistant secretary to the First Presidency from 1972-1986.

Incidentally, the secretary reported that somebody else had called them and requested a search for the letter about a year ago, and that the office had failed to find the "1993" letter at that time, too. It wasn't yours truly, and, so far as I'm aware, it wasn't Professor Hamblin. My bet is that it was my Malevolent Stalker, or somebody of that ilk. But who knows?

As to why the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies apparently gives the date of the Carla Ogden fax as the date of the letter from Michael Watson, I could not begin to say. I am not, and have never been, the editor of the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies.

And why did Michael Watson write something else to Bishop Brooks in 1990? Again, I cannot say. I simply report the facts as I know them or learn them. And then I'm accused of being a lying fool. That's pretty much how it works.

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/46 ... 1208775896

So the first Watson letter (1990) was actually the second and the Ogden fax (1993) was the third. The first Watson letter can be dated to pre-1985, according to Dr. Hamblin. Why, when he published the pre-1985 Watson letter in the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies in 1993, Hamblin cited it as “ Correspondence from Michael Watson, Office of the First Presidency, 23 April 1993” remains a mystery.

[Tom]

"A" Carla Ogden passed away in 2019:

https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/de ... id=2061103

Carla Jean Ogden
Salt Lake/Richfield
Carla Jean Ogden, 74, passed away, September 17, 2019 in Murray.. Carla was born January 12, 1945 in Richfield, the oldest daughter of Carl Foy and Jean Marie Sperry Ogden.She is survived by her sisters: Kathleen (Jim) Hepner and Sandra Kaye (Morris) Morgan.
A memorial service will be held September 21, 2019 at 9:30 a.m. in Edgehill Ward Chapel, 1500 East, Blaine Avenue, Salt Lake City. Graveside services will be held 4:30 p.m. at the Richfield Cemetery, 800 North Main, Richfield, Utah. Funeral Directors: Magleby Mortuary, Richfield. Full obituary at www.maglebymortuary.com

That’s her. I was a bit surprised to find a comment left on the tribute wall by F. Michael Watson and Jolene Watson.

A lovely servant of the Lord who has earned the confidence and trust of seven Presidents of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for the 40 plus years of dedicated service in the Office of The First Presidency. Her talent will continue to bless others in the Eternities. The adage, "Well done thou good and faithful servant" is an honor given to perhaps many others but none any more deserving than Sister Ogden. She was a most faithful secretary and competent in all she did each and every day - She was loved by our family.

Elder and Sister F. Michael and Jolene Watson

https://www.maglebymortuary.com/obituary/Carla-Ogden

[Philo Sofee]

Here is a 2009 post from Dr. Peterson I wish to archive (I’ll be sending it to a Cassius archivist shortly).

So irritated have I become by repeated accusations that I'm a liar or that I'm losing my mind, that I actually did call the Office of the First Presidency yesterday, and a secretary there was kind enough to search through their records for me. I gave her the 1993 date. This was fine, she said, since the records of their correspondence go back to 1987. When she called back, though, she said that she was unable to find any such letter on that date in 1993, or on any date in the vicinity, although she had looked under Hamblin, Hall, and FARMS. I found this extremely puzzling, and so, she said, did she, because, she told me, the language I had reported to her sounds very much like a standard letter that they have sent out for many years now.

So I wrote to Bill and asked him, again, whether there was any chance that I was misremembering. My memory on certain things was distinct: I knew that I had seen and read and held the letter, and that it was a letter, and that it was a letter from Michael Watson.

As I've said before, though, I wasn't clear as to exactly how Professor Hamblin had made contact with Michael Watson. I had assumed that he had written to him shortly before I saw the letter, but I was always a bit hazy on that.

Now (cue drum roll), Professor Hamblin has just surprised me with something that I hadn't known, and hadn't suspected: "You are senile," he writes from Cordoba, Spain (my emphasis). "I published the letter in 1993. However, I received it while still in graduate school =before 1985."

This will certainly give rise to a whole new flurry of accusations of deception, incompetence, and etc. The Maxwell Institute is about to fall, and blah blah blah. I'm sure I'll be accused of lying, as will Professor Hamblin. We're only in it for the money. We'll say absolutely anything, because we have no integrity, etc., and etc.

I simply report the facts as they are known (or become known) to me.

According to Wikipedia, F. Michael Watson was secretary to the First Presidency from 1986 until his call as a General Authority in 2008, but had served as an assistant secretary to the First Presidency from 1972-1986.

Incidentally, the secretary reported that somebody else had called them and requested a search for the letter about a year ago, and that the office had failed to find the "1993" letter at that time, too. It wasn't yours truly, and, so far as I'm aware, it wasn't Professor Hamblin. My bet is that it was my Malevolent Stalker, or somebody of that ilk. But who knows?

As to why the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies apparently gives the date of the Carla Ogden fax as the date of the letter from Michael Watson, I could not begin to say. I am not, and have never been, the editor of the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies.

And why did Michael Watson write something else to Bishop Brooks in 1990? Again, I cannot say. I simply report the facts as I know them or learn them. And then I'm accused of being a lying fool. That's pretty much how it works.

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/46 ... 1208775896

So the first Watson letter (1990) was actually the second and the Ogden fax (1993) was the third. The first Watson letter can be dated to pre-1985, according to Dr. Hamblin. Why, when he published the pre-1985 Watson letter in the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies in 1993, Hamblin cited it as “ Correspondence from Michael Watson, Office of the First Presidency, 23 April 1993” remains a mystery.

This kind of banter pattern of Peterson is the automatic mode he goes into when he has been caught with a lie or something worse. He always starts writing like this to obfuscate, it is what a rhetorician does best. He is trying desperately to take our eyes off the prize clue. He plays cute and self-accusatory in order to play his home field audience who laps it up and imagines their hero is constantly misjudged and unrighteously assailed without evidence. I have seen this pattern from him for decades now. And every single time he goes into this mode he has been caught hiding something crucial which shows he was wrong.

[malkie]

Here is a 2009 post from Dr. Peterson I wish to archive (I’ll be sending it to a Cassius archivist shortly).

So irritated have I become by repeated accusations that I'm a liar or that I'm losing my mind, that I actually did call the Office of the First Presidency yesterday, and a secretary there was kind enough to search through their records for me. I gave her the 1993 date. This was fine, she said, since the records of their correspondence go back to 1987. When she called back, though, she said that she was unable to find any such letter on that date in 1993, or on any date in the vicinity, although she had looked under Hamblin, Hall, and FARMS. I found this extremely puzzling, and so, she said, did she, because, she told me, the language I had reported to her sounds very much like a standard letter that they have sent out for many years now.

So I wrote to Bill and asked him, again, whether there was any chance that I was misremembering. My memory on certain things was distinct: I knew that I had seen and read and held the letter, and that it was a letter, and that it was a letter from Michael Watson.

As I've said before, though, I wasn't clear as to exactly how Professor Hamblin had made contact with Michael Watson. I had assumed that he had written to him shortly before I saw the letter, but I was always a bit hazy on that.

Now (cue drum roll), Professor Hamblin has just surprised me with something that I hadn't known, and hadn't suspected: "You are senile," he writes from Cordoba, Spain (my emphasis). "I published the letter in 1993. However, I received it while still in graduate school =before 1985."

This will certainly give rise to a whole new flurry of accusations of deception, incompetence, and etc. The Maxwell Institute is about to fall, and blah blah blah. I'm sure I'll be accused of lying, as will Professor Hamblin. We're only in it for the money. We'll say absolutely anything, because we have no integrity, etc., and etc.

I simply report the facts as they are known (or become known) to me.

According to Wikipedia, F. Michael Watson was secretary to the First Presidency from 1986 until his call as a General Authority in 2008, but had served as an assistant secretary to the First Presidency from 1972-1986.

Incidentally, the secretary reported that somebody else had called them and requested a search for the letter about a year ago, and that the office had failed to find the "1993" letter at that time, too. It wasn't yours truly, and, so far as I'm aware, it wasn't Professor Hamblin. My bet is that it was my Malevolent Stalker, or somebody of that ilk. But who knows?

As to why the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies apparently gives the date of the Carla Ogden fax as the date of the letter from Michael Watson, I could not begin to say. I am not, and have never been, the editor of the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies.

And why did Michael Watson write something else to Bishop Brooks in 1990? Again, I cannot say. I simply report the facts as I know them or learn them. And then I'm accused of being a lying fool. That's pretty much how it works.

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/46 ... 1208775896

So the first Watson letter (1990) was actually the second and the Ogden fax (1993) was the third. The first Watson letter can be dated to pre-1985, according to Dr. Hamblin. Why, when he published the pre-1985 Watson letter in the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies in 1993, Hamblin cited it as “ Correspondence from Michael Watson, Office of the First Presidency, 23 April 1993” remains a mystery.

If I had been him, I might have thought to ask the secretary to send me, for my records, a copy of the " standard letter that they have sent out for many years now." It would have been interesting to compare the standard letter with both the 1990 Watson-Brooks letter and the Carla Ogden fax.

[Moksha]

"I published the letter in 1993. However, I received it while still in graduate school =before 1985."

Talk about weaving tangled webs. Maybe Dr. Peterson should check behind his inbox to see if there is any communique from the Nephites he or Dr. Hamblin may have overlooked.

Wonder if there was any subterfuge in having Ms. Ogden fax a paragraph directly from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism. I doubt that was a standard operating procedure for the First Presidency. Why would the First Presidency fail to make a proper citation with author attribution?

[drumdude]

Bingo. They probably asked to have the section faxed, probably under false pretenses, just so they could have the letter they so desperately wanted.

[sock puppet]

Brent Hall's internal memo at FARMS does not make sense. If the FP wanted to clarify matters about one HC or two, they'd send an unsigned fax of clauses lifted from the "Cumorah" entry in Ludlow's Encyclopedia of Mornonism only to FARMS? Clairification? or, if anyone besides Carla Ogden was involved, just more confusion? In 1990, Watson had answered Ronnie Sparks' question by sending a response to his Oklahoma bishop. Yet, to clarify the matter, instead of a FP letter or general pronouncement, to clear the matter up, they'd just send it to FARMS? The FP thought no one outside of FARMS (or people asking FARMS) were wondering about the location of the Book of Mormon "Cumorah"?