Brigham Young, critic of racism

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Re: Brigham Young, critic of racism

Post by drumdude »

Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. He doesn’t leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep. Because it makes no significant difference.

-Jesus, sermon on the Mayan temple
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Re: Brigham Young, critic of racism

Post by IHAQ »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:16 pm
In context to wishing his church had aligned itself with the civil rights movement Lance the Agnostic stated:
I also wish our leaders would have stood with MLK and supported the Civil Rights Movement. Many other churches did, much to their credit.

Do what is right let the consequence follow. At least that’s what they taught me in Primary.
In response the church’s leading apologist retorted:
DanielPeterson Mod > Lance the Agnostic

L the A: "Many other churches did, much to their credit."

There is, I think, some mitigation in the fact that the Church then was far smaller, far more marginal, and far more regional than it is today. Its support would have made no significant difference.
-_-

Unbelievable.

- Doc
On this basis widows everywhere should hold onto their mite, according to Peterson.
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Re: Brigham Young, critic of racism

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

An excellent post by a commenter on DCP’s blog:
My Dad was one of those good, decent people Dan refers to in this post. He followed Elder Bensen's line of thinking that MLK was a Communist toady, and I heard this constantly growing up. When MLK was martyred, we all thought that was probably a good thing. When Robert Kenndy was killed, I remember, distinctly, wondering why this sort of thing was occurring, and even though we were Republicans, I really liked Kennedy. I remember instinctively recognizing that I didn't really know or understand anything about any of this.

After my mission, I attended the University of Washington. It became readily apparent to me that my dad and my family had been dead wrong about MLK, which commenced a journey into self-reflection and a personal responsibility for my own beliefs, but I still was fully invested in the racial policies and doctrines inherent in Church affiliation at that time. With the 1978 reversal which thereafter led to the death of the attendant complex of old understandings and teachings which supported the priesthood and temple ban, my entire conception of personal responsibility, faith, belief, and religious commitment were permanently and irrevocably altered. But, as jarring as these things were to me, they acted as a catalyst. There are many things wrong with me, but not having a deeply rooted theory of mind isn't one of them. You cannot understand another person unless loving him is more important to you than loving "being right."
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Re: Brigham Young, critic of racism

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DCP says:
Finally, let me frankly acknowledge the fact that neither the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints nor Latter-day Saints generally were in the forefront of Dr. King’s civil rights movement. Indeed, many were suspicious of it. That’s quite true. But it might also be pointed out that, in some regards, the situation was more complex than it now seems in retrospect (especially to those who didn’t live through that period), and perhaps less clear to people who, as could be said of the overwhelming majority of Latter-day Saints at the time (more rural and more concentrated in the the Great Basin west then than now), knew few if any black people and had little or no contact with the brutal reality of segregation in the American South. I’m not trying to make excuses, but I do want to head off attempts to demonize the Latter-day Saints of the 1950s and 1960s. They were, overwhelmingly, good and decent people.
I agree that they were good people. However, they were racist and had racist leaders and we should acknowledge that. They had a lot of flaws. I am sure posters here heard racial jokes growing up at family gatherings. I don't hear it at all any more as the older generations have died out. Thank goodness for that. But our 50's and 60's ancestors were behind the Hotel Utah not allowing African Americans to stay there.

https://www.deseret.com/2009/3/16/20307 ... -the-hotel

Provo didn't allow african americans to stay overnight either. They were segregationists. They were behind the times with civil rights and took too long to lift the racial ban. I was in the same ward as Delbert Stapley, racist apostle, and heard him give the "negros were neutral" speech to justify church racism. So, sorry DCP, we have a racist legacy that needs to be examined and properly condemned.
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Re: Brigham Young, critic of racism

Post by canpakes »

Doctor Steuss wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:53 pm
And the boy took the starfish up from the beach and readied himself to return it to the sea. Upon a moment of reflection, he placed the starfish back down on the sand, content in the knowledge that it would have made no significant difference.

1.6 billion years in the future, the Starfish Civilization will still speak of this pivotal moment in the life of their common ancestral starfish mother.

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Re: Brigham Young, critic of racism

Post by Physics Guy »

Those sixties Mormons weren’t demons, no. But they clearly weren’t led by a prophet of God.
I was a teenager before it was cool.
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Re: Brigham Young, critic of racism

Post by IHAQ »

Physics Guy wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:03 am
Those sixties Mormons weren’t demons, no. But they clearly weren’t led by a prophet of God.
Mormon Prophets seem to have a similar success rate in accurately assessing what will come to pass in the future as a magic 8 ball or wall street trader.
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Re: Brigham Young, critic of racism

Post by dastardly stem »

There is, I think, some mitigation in the fact that the Church then was far smaller, far more marginal, and far more regional than it is today. Its support would have made no significant difference.
I know its all been said here already, but I can't help but add my two cents.

There was no significant difference by leading, for generations (at least one if we're being generous), members down an unhealthy path all because the Church was much smaller then? By that rationale child abusers, or rapists, even serial ones, make no significant difference so it's ok, not that bad, or nothing to be concerned about.

What measure of significant difference does he think he's going with here? If the Church stood up, firm and resolute on the matter, who knows? Maybe we'd all be in a much better place today, significantly so. Perhaps such a move would have inspired many millions, not just church members. We'd never know. Only God could know that. And though Peterson thinks he's on the brink of godhood, I doubt, if pressed, he'd suggest he has much more than a guess on that. I hope he complains someone accused him of supporting rapists now. His disciples will eat that cowering victimhood up. And then he'll say something about if he didn't believe in God he'd think being a rapist ain't that bad anyway...or something.
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Re: Brigham Young, critic of racism

Post by Moksha »

As Dr. Peterson correctly pointed out, there should be no consternation over Cleon Skousen eating rats, because he did not use an inordinate amount of cayenne pepper on them.

Let's see them call Brigham Young a leftist sympathizer over at Sic et Non and see the ad hominems fly.
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Re: Brigham Young, critic of racism

Post by huckelberry »

Dr Exiled wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:25 am
DCP says:
Finally, let me frankly acknowledge the fact that neither the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints nor Latter-day Saints generally were in the forefront of Dr. King’s civil rights movement. Indeed, many were suspicious of it. That’s quite true. But it might also be pointed out that, in some regards, the situation was more complex than it now seems in retrospect (especially to those who didn’t live through that period), and perhaps less clear to people who, as could be said of the overwhelming majority of Latter-day Saints at the time (more rural and more concentrated in the the Great Basin west then than now), knew few if any black people and had little or no contact with the brutal reality of segregation in the American South. I’m not trying to make excuses, but I do want to head off attempts to demonize the Latter-day Saints of the 1950s and 1960s. They were, overwhelmingly, good and decent people.
I agree that they were good people. However, they were racist and had racist leaders and we should acknowledge that. They had a lot of flaws. I am sure posters here heard racial jokes growing up at family gatherings. I don't hear it at all any more as the older generations have died out. Thank goodness for that. But our 50's and 60's ancestors were behind the Hotel Utah not allowing African Americans to stay there.

https://www.deseret.com/2009/3/16/20307 ... -the-hotel

Provo didn't allow african americans to stay overnight either. They were segregationists. They were behind the times with civil rights and took too long to lift the racial ban. I was in the same ward as Delbert Stapley, racist apostle, and heard him give the "negros were neutral" speech to justify church racism. So, sorry DCP, we have a racist legacy that needs to be examined and properly condemned.
first curiosity, so when did segregation end in the Hotel Utah and in Provo? The article notes decades ago..

I remember well that ignorance of black abilities was pervasive in the US. The church attitude of having divine knowledge helped protect that ignorance somewhat longer than was the case for many outside the church. I remember the neutral in the war in heaven idea was pervasive in the church in the 1960s. I have a bit of resentment that that idea was inserted into my youthful brain. I suppose the people inserting it also previously suffered the insertion.
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