Peterson's parents, left alone because they weren't 'lds'

[Marcus]

I feel Kish is continuing to miss my point.

Whatever accuracy your point may have as it applies to other instances of Peterson's treatment or characterization of non-members or ex-members, your reading of his treatment/characterization of his parents was unconvincing.

Yes, I understand it was unconvincing to you. I didn't find it so, obviously, but I appreciate you sharing your opinion.

[Kishkumen]

Yes, I understand it was unconvincing to you. I didn't find it so, obviously, but I appreciate you sharing your opinion.

I note that the first three veteran posters to respond to your OP also found your characterization either inaccurate or downright embarrassing.

[Marcus]

Yes, I understand it was unconvincing to you. I didn't find it so, obviously, but I appreciate you sharing your opinion.

I note that the first three veteran posters to respond to your OP also found your characterization either inaccurate or downright embarrassing.

Yes, I've read the posts in this thread. Again, obviously I disagree with your position, but I appreciate you providing your assessment of the opinions in those three posts.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Well, here’s the thing about “the community” you find in Mormonism. It ain’t workin’. I’m watching the latest Mormon Stories podcast because I’m seeing some chatter about the attendance numbers, and I was blown away. Only 31% of Wasatch Front Young Men are serving missions. 31%! Carah, John Dehlin’s co-host asserted earlier the “church” was imploding, and I was like, “Hrm. I dunno.”

But check it, yo. A 1/3 of the 1/3 come home early. AND, something like 50% of RM’s bounce at some point.

It’s something akin to the replacement birth rate for a given country needs to be 2.5’ish kids per couple. If you dip below that number your country and its long-term economy will regress and run the risk of collapse. Now, image that if your replacement birth rate was only 20%.

You’re screwed.

The Mormon church has a serious problem on its hands, and I think goes back to the notion that it doesn’t foster the kind of community that DCP claims exists.

Also, I wonder if it occurs to the bon vivant that many, many people actually enjoy having a pared down relationship with their neighbors, or families, or community? Maybe his parents were actually thrilled to death they didn’t have to deal with a bunch of judgmental assholes like their kid?

- Doc

[Kishkumen]

Well, here’s the thing about “the community” you find in Mormonism. It ain’t workin’. I’m watching the latest Mormon Stories podcast because I’m seeing some chatter about the attendance numbers, and I was blown away. Only 31% of Wasatch Front Young Men are serving missions. 31%! Carah, John Dehlin’s co-host asserted earlier the “church” was imploding, and I was like, “Hrm. I dunno.”

But check it, yo. A 1/3 of the 1/3 come home early. AND, something like 50% of RM’s bounce at some point.

It’s something akin to the replacement birth rate for a given country needs to be 2.5’ish kids per couple. If you dip below that number your country and its long-term economy will regress and run the risk of collapse. Now, image that if your replacement birth rate was only 20%.

You’re screwed.

The Mormon church has a serious problem on its hands, and I think goes back to the notion that it doesn’t foster the kind of community that DCP claims exists.

Also, I wonder if it occurs to the bon vivant that many, many people actually enjoy having a pared down relationship with their neighbors, or families, or community? Maybe his parents were actually thrilled to death they didn’t have to deal with a bunch of judgmental assholes like their kid?

- Doc

Yep! No argument for me about that. The LDS Church is absolutely flopping. Big time. All I am saying is that community is valuable, and some people find they can meet their needs in the LDS Church. It stands to reason that this minority will genuinely believe that the LDS Church has a good thing going. I don’t get it. I think the LDS Church sucks ass at providing healthy community, but I obviously don’t speak for everyone, and some people I genuinely love absolutely disagree with me.

[Philo Sofee]

Is it impossible to think that his convictions might be genuine in any way, to any extent?

I’m kind of with Peterson on this one, in that creating an avenue toward social cohesion is one of the upsides to belonging to a church (or some other community organization). I believe the “church” used to be a much more effective vehicle where the social ties that bound members were brought about by happy activities.

Remember when the RS was the hearth and soul of the Church? Before it that was sacrificed for expediency and money? Canning. Gardening. Homemaking. Child rearing. Friendship building. Advice on the personal and professional goals for women, men, and children. They were glue that knit the fabric of the Mormon soul back together that was deliberately unraveled. Remember road shows and Halloween parties where kids trick or treated from classroom to classroom? Remember the musical acts, singing, and a celebrations of life? Remember Ward house kitchens and bake-offs?

I remember old school Mormonism, and the sisters’ creative and passionate energies. I remember when the men were men and not some sort of soulless corporate lackeys who are subordinates to Corporate HQ. Remember Scouting, the Explorers, and adventurism? I remember the wild male spirit as we’d play “touch foot all”, but it was the Bishop crushing Deacons left and right. I remember members developing deep bonds watching football, bbq’ing, and living life intently.

What a beautiful moment in “church” history. It could be that again, but I’m not sure the corporate real estate magnates care about that kind of community. Perhaps that’s what Peterson remembers, but I’m not sure it’s there any more.

- Doc

Hells yeah! Now THAT I could get into again! But it's all just sorta disappeared... that is terribly SAD. Seriously. Back then that WAS an actual community. The friendship was real. The food was actually good. The fun was actually FUN. I remember the whole youth group going around up and down every single street in the neighborhood in mid December on the HUGE semi truck flat trailer with straw bails Christmas Caroling... brings tears to my eyes remembering how just damn awesome those times were. And then afterwards going back to the church for hot chocolate and donuts and all kinds of goodies. I had a GREAT youth as a Mormon and your post brought back SO many fabulous memories. Thanks Doc. That was awesome.

[Philo Sofee]

They are, at least in my small anecdotal observations. I hope they are elsewhere. Peterson's message seems to be similar to Wilcox's, if somewhat less strident. (Wilcox: if you leave the church you will be giving up everything that has any meaning at all in this life...)

Peterson's message is slightly milder, but also, his message that his church is where you find human connections does more than fail to note the possibility of other options. His disparagement of those who have left his church is quite clear, which is the thrust of his blog piece. It's comforting for those who stay, I suppose, and unfortunately gives them ammunition if they feel the need to similarly disparage family members who have left. It's one thing to promote the blessings of his church, it would be interesting to see if he could do it without the disparagement of those who have left his church.

$100 says he can't and won't not for any significant length of time.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I’m kind of with Peterson on this one, in that creating an avenue toward social cohesion is one of the upsides to belonging to a church (or some other community organization). I believe the “church” used to be a much more effective vehicle where the social ties that bound members were brought about by happy activities.

Remember when the RS was the hearth and soul of the Church? Before it that was sacrificed for expediency and money? Canning. Gardening. Homemaking. Child rearing. Friendship building. Advice on the personal and professional goals for women, men, and children. They were glue that knit the fabric of the Mormon soul back together that was deliberately unraveled. Remember road shows and Halloween parties where kids trick or treated from classroom to classroom? Remember the musical acts, singing, and a celebrations of life? Remember Ward house kitchens and bake-offs?

I remember old school Mormonism, and the sisters’ creative and passionate energies. I remember when the men were men and not some sort of soulless corporate lackeys who are subordinates to Corporate HQ. Remember Scouting, the Explorers, and adventurism? I remember the wild male spirit as we’d play “touch foot all”, but it was the Bishop crushing Deacons left and right. I remember members developing deep bonds watching football, bbq’ing, and living life intently.

What a beautiful moment in “church” history. It could be that again, but I’m not sure the corporate real estate magnates care about that kind of community. Perhaps that’s what Peterson remembers, but I’m not sure it’s there any more.

- Doc

Hells yeah! Now THAT I could get into again! But it's all just sorta disappeared... that is terribly SAD. Seriously. Back then that WAS an actual community. The friendship was real. The food was actually good. The fun was actually FUN. I remember the whole youth group going around up and down every single street in the neighborhood in mid December on the HUGE semi truck flat trailer with straw bails Christmas Caroling... brings tears to my eyes remembering how just damn awesome those times were. And then afterwards going back to the church for hot chocolate and donuts and all kinds of goodies. I had a GREAT youth as a Mormon and your post brought back SO many fabulous memories. Thanks Doc. That was awesome.

You’re welcome, Philo. I have many, many beautiful memories of the “church” when I was young. What a shame so many kids won’t get to experience that.

- Doc

[Res Ipsa]

Well, here’s the thing about “the community” you find in Mormonism. It ain’t workin’. I’m watching the latest Mormon Stories podcast because I’m seeing some chatter about the attendance numbers, and I was blown away. Only 31% of Wasatch Front Young Men are serving missions. 31%! Carah, John Dehlin’s co-host asserted earlier the “church” was imploding, and I was like, “Hrm. I dunno.”

But check it, yo. A 1/3 of the 1/3 come home early. AND, something like 50% of RM’s bounce at some point.

It’s something akin to the replacement birth rate for a given country needs to be 2.5’ish kids per couple. If you dip below that number your country and its long-term economy will regress and run the risk of collapse. Now, image that if your replacement birth rate was only 20%.

You’re screwed.

The Mormon church has a serious problem on its hands, and I think goes back to the notion that it doesn’t foster the kind of community that DCP claims exists.

Also, I wonder if it occurs to the bon vivant that many, many people actually enjoy having a pared down relationship with their neighbors, or families, or community? Maybe his parents were actually thrilled to death they didn’t have to deal with a bunch of judgmental assholes like their kid?

- Doc

The US has been below the replacement birth rate for a while now. (I think replacement is only 2.1.) The US Census webpage has a counter: one death every 9 seconds and one birth every 10 seconds. Tick Tock.

Did they say where the numbers they cited came from?

[Physics Guy]

Was all that community and childhood stuff something the Mormon church did, then stopped doing, but could now do again? Or did it happen for reasons besides the church itself, then go away when demographic circumstances changed, and the Mormon church is just withering now in a social environment that doesn't support it any more?

A lot happened in the middle of the 20th century. There was a long decade of terrible worldwide depression, then a worldwide war, and then a long economic and demographic boom during a Cold War that terrified everyone whenever they stopped to think about it. If you grew up in those times, or even if your parents did and their memories shaped your childhood, then that era may seem like a normality to which everything could quickly revert—and perhaps should revert. In fact, though, I think, those were weird times, created by horrible circumstances which we should all hope will not come again. We can respect the Great Generation for getting through those weird times, but not accept the society of those times as a template.

No doubt there were a lot of good things in those days, which would be nice to recover. We're probably not going to be able to recover the good things of mid-twentieth-century Western life by just doing whatever it was people did then, though, because I think the previous recipe for those good things included war and depression as essential ingredients, the calamities from which the world was at last bouncing back. Even if our goal is to reproduce some things from those good old days, we're going to have to find new ways to produce them. Hopefully we'll find easier ways than war and depression, but we probably won't find anything as easy as the self-reinforcing boom after the depression and war were finally over.