You'll notice that Peterson backs off on the concept of ignorance when it comes to actual ancient plates documenting actual historical events, delivered and then removed by an actual angel. Rather, he seems to be chiding people for not at least acknowledging that Smith could have forged fake plates, and that one or the other, angelic plates or earthly forgeries, MUST have occurred.Peterson wrote:...The precise opposite of invincible ignorance in Catholic moral theory is vincible ignorance. It refers to people who were or are in a position that renders them capable of knowing x by means of reasonable effort, especially where knowledge of x is in some sense obligatory, but who freely choose not to do so. People in a state of vincible ignorance may be granted some excuse for it if they made at least some effort to overcome their lack of knowledge but, if they made no serious effort at all to correct their error, it actually renders their culpability for it greater and more serious.
These are some of my thoughts, contemplating a few folks who claim to know for certain, without any shadow of doubt or any trace of awareness that there is evidence against their position, that absolutely no physical Book of Mormon plates of any kind, whether miraculously provided or not, ever existed.
Odd, but typical of Peterson's logical processes.Gemli, however, seems to have reached his limit for the ludicrous, and is more specific in his objections to this nonsense than I've seen him be in a long time.
And it continues, when 'evidence' is mentioned:gemli • 2 days ago
The truth of a claim typically hinges on examining evidence that would justify it. But for all theologies, and for the LDS faith in particular, we're left following a chain of non-evidence. Golden Plates provided by an angel and translated by a dubious fellow looking at special stones in a top hat seems to stretch credulity to well past the breaking point. The evidence offered for the truth of such claims consists of more of the very same mystical assertions and unavailable artifacts that are the very thing that require evidence to demonstrate their existence. If one has the temerity to ask witnesses for proof, one is left reading the terse and mechanical assertions of those who have been duped to certify that they have not been duped.
But I suppose if one grows up in what amounts to a theological compound one might succumb to the pervasive and persistent assertions of bizarre events in the dim past because they come at one from all directions by trusted members of society who have a sort of exalted status in the community....
http://disq.us/p/2m9dywz
gemli > Michael R. Loveridge, J. D. • 2 days ago
No, it would not be sufficient evidence to conclude that golden plates were provided by an angel. Such a claim would require a great deal more evidence than that. The "plates" would have to be examined by someone with the ability to determine their authenticity. In fact, it's the lack of evidence that makes the plates compelling to susceptible souls. It seems if you tell mortals that they're going to be immortal you don't need to do a whole lot of convincing.
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DanielPeterson Mod > gemli • 2 days ago
gemli: "No, it would not be sufficient evidence to conclude that golden plates were provided by an angel. Such a claim would require a great deal more evidence than that."
Fortunately, a great deal more evidence was provided.
gemli: "It seems if you tell mortals that they're going to be immortal you don't need to do a whole lot of convincing."
You keep asserting this. You never provide any supporting evidence. Of course, that's pretty much what you do: unsupported assertions.
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gemli > DanielPeterson • 2 days ago
If there's more evidence, I've read your column for many years and I haven't seen it.
On the face of it, it appears that a man who was not unknown to the authorities for perpetrating various frauds struck the mother lode when he declared himself to be a Prophet of the most high God. You'd think that any god who went out of his way to make His presence known could do better than revealing himself to a con man in a small backwoods town.
And if you're going to leave plates, then leave the dadgum plates so people can know the True Truth. When non-affiliated theists roll their eyes at the Mormon story, you've got to wonder what's going on.
http://disq.us/p/2m9w5nc