Anti-Gay Bigotry is alive and well on Sic Et Non…

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Anti-Gay Bigotry is alive and well on Sic Et Non…

Post by IHAQ »

In the comments section of a recent article Michael Hoggan passes comment on the investigation into BYU’s treatment of gay students.
Michael says…
It is unwise to encourage people who feel SSA to be sexually active or be in a "romantic relationship".
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... enant.html
He’s then asked…
Michael, is it unwise to encourage gay people to fall in love, date, get married, have children or adopt?
…to which he responds…
Yes! I consider people who feel SSA to be psychologically fragile and they can't, at least in general, bear the responsibilities that come with those things. A lot of schizophrenics and bipolars are dead or in prison because society encouraged them to act on their impulses instead of helping them with their self-destructive issues.
So being gay is, in Michaels mind, akin to be schizophrenic or bipolar.

Isn’t this the kind of thing the CHI recently outlawed? Why is DCP allowing such uneducated hate-speech on his blog? Isn’t the facilitation of this kind of thing also against the spirit of the requirements within CHI?
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Re: Anti-Gay Bigotry is alive and well on Sic Et Non…

Post by huckelberry »

IHAQ wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:45 am

Isn’t this the kind of thing the CHI recently outlawed? Why is DCP allowing such uneducated hate-speech on his blog? Isn’t the facilitation of this kind of thing also against the spirit of the requirements within CHI?
IHAQ, What is CHI and how are they legislating against ignorance and fear?
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Re: Anti-Gay Bigotry is alive and well on Sic Et Non…

Post by Tator »

CHI is the Church Handbook of Instruction, I think.
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Re: Anti-Gay Bigotry is alive and well on Sic Et Non…

Post by IHAQ »

Tator wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:32 pm
CHI is the Church Handbook of Instruction, I think.
Yes it is.
Latter-day Saints should “avoid all statements of prejudice toward others” and avoid the use of threatening, degrading, bullying, violent or other abusive language or images online, according to a policy update included in the church’s newly completed General Handbook of policies and procedures.
https://www.deseret.com/faith/2021/12/1 ... ar-project
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Re: Anti-Gay Bigotry is alive and well on Sic Et Non…

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

This content is being hosted on Daniel C. Peterson’s Sic et Non blog:
Michael Hoggan Lance the Agnostic • 17 hours ago

It is unwise to encourage people who feel SSA to be sexually active or be in a "romantic relationship". I don't care what their theological beliefs are.
Michael Hoggan Lance the Agnostic • 16 hours ago • edited

Yes! I consider people who feel SSA to be psychologically fragile and they can't, at least in general, bear the responsibilities that come with those things. A lot of schizophrenics and bipolars are dead or in prison because society encouraged them to act on their impulses instead of helping them with their self-destructive issues.

Edit: Exhibit A for this would be the "defining down" of homosexual sexual abuse in California. Exhibit B is the "worry no more! HIV+ people can still have lots of sex if they take our new HIV suppression medicine!" commercials.
And the home run for out of this world hot takes:
Kyler Ray Rasmussen Michael Hoggan • 5 hours ago

This shows up in census data too. Rates of mental illness are substantially higher for those who identify as LGB (not to mention T) than they are for heterosexual individuals. And it turns out that stigma isn't what explains the difference--marriage rates do. When you control for whether individuals get married, that difference disappears for gay and lesbian individuals (though not for bisexuals--more on that in a minute).

The prescription usually made at this point is a clear one--encourage gay and lesbian individuals to get married--and that seems straightforward enough. But there's are a couple little niggles. One is selection--the type of gay individual who gets married is qualitatively difference from those who do not choose to get married, and encouraging the latter to get married may help but wouldn't necessarily make their mental health vulnerability equivalent.

The second niggle is more interesting to me--you can't separate the experience of same-sex attraction from the cultural forces in and surrounding the gay community and the gay rights movement. And those forces, for all the cultural cache of gay marriage, push hard against the formation of committed and stable relationships. When someone identifies as LGB, their odds of marriage drops preciptously, and the odds of having children drop off a cliff. It's not stigma that's doing this--it's progressive and gay culture.

When I was at BYU, I was pretty libertarian about gay marriage, and thought that allowing gay marriage could help transform gay culture and make it more stable and relationship-focused. But after a couple decades worth of data and years of training as a relationship scientist, it's clear to me that the opposite force ended up being more powerful. As progressive relationship sensibilities have become ascendent, and the purpose of relationships has become more focused on fulfilling personal sexual desires and proclivities--in concert with and in no small part because of the push for gay marriage--marriage rates have themselves tumbled. People are abandoning the institution en masse, and the reason for this should be no mystery: stable relationships are hard work, and if the goal is to fulfill sexual desires, then that goal is, ironically, most easily met alone.

People are starting to clue into the fact that this trend is counterproductive for mental health. As we become increasingly atomized, suicide rates and rates of mental illness and substance use are increasing in precisely the groups that are jumping on the progressive relationship bandwagon--the young, the single, and the irreligious.

And this issue is conflated with the phenomenon of bisexuality. Rates of mental illness among bisexuals are much higher than other groups and can't be adequately explained by stigma or even by relationship formation. And I suspect strongly that this is due to the lack of a stable identity--as people question and experiment with their own sexuality, they question and experiment with the core of who they are. Unmooring from that foundation of identity leaves them without a safe place to retreat to when the winds and waves of life come crashing in. That this would apply doubly to those experimenting with gender identity should be obvious.

So whether or not it's good for gay people to avoid same-sex relationships (and it's worth noting that this does NOT cut them off from all possibility of love, dating, relationships or families), it's clear to me that embracing progressive relationships prescriptions would do substantially more harm to the mental health of the church as a whole than it would do good to the church's gay community. As much as I empathize with the often tragic situation facing those in the church experiencing same-sex attraction, I'd rather do my best to comfort and care for that group within the confines of the gospel than watch the church's strong culture of marriage and family fall by the wayside.
-_-

Good Lord.

- Doc
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Re: Anti-Gay Bigotry is alive and well on Sic Et Non…

Post by IHAQ »

Michael, what is the basis of your worry? What studies are you relying on that show those “who feel SSA are psychologically fragile and they can't, at least in general, bear the responsibilities that come with those things ?”
Michael Hoggan Lance the Agnostic • 16 hours ago • edited
I have anecdotal information from group therapy. I also know, from studies, that the suicide rate for homosexuals is unusually high even in sexually libertine places like Denmark. Furthermore, the studies don't take into account moral health and safety. I'll get back to you with more.
I highly recommend "When Harry became Sally" for that particular aspect of the issue. One issue is that SSA leaves people vulnerable to sexual exploitation.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... qus_thread

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Re: Anti-Gay Bigotry is alive and well on Sic Et Non…

Post by Rivendale »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:40 pm
This content is being hosted on Daniel C. Peterson’s Sic et Non blog:
Michael Hoggan Lance the Agnostic • 17 hours ago

It is unwise to encourage people who feel SSA to be sexually active or be in a "romantic relationship". I don't care what their theological beliefs are.
Michael Hoggan Lance the Agnostic • 16 hours ago • edited

Yes! I consider people who feel SSA to be psychologically fragile and they can't, at least in general, bear the responsibilities that come with those things. A lot of schizophrenics and bipolars are dead or in prison because society encouraged them to act on their impulses instead of helping them with their self-destructive issues.

Edit: Exhibit A for this would be the "defining down" of homosexual sexual abuse in California. Exhibit B is the "worry no more! HIV+ people can still have lots of sex if they take our new HIV suppression medicine!" commercials.
And the home run for out of this world hot takes:
Kyler Ray Rasmussen Michael Hoggan • 5 hours ago

This shows up in census data too. Rates of mental illness are substantially higher for those who identify as LGB (not to mention T) than they are for heterosexual individuals. And it turns out that stigma isn't what explains the difference--marriage rates do. When you control for whether individuals get married, that difference disappears for gay and lesbian individuals (though not for bisexuals--more on that in a minute).

The prescription usually made at this point is a clear one--encourage gay and lesbian individuals to get married--and that seems straightforward enough. But there's are a couple little niggles. One is selection--the type of gay individual who gets married is qualitatively difference from those who do not choose to get married, and encouraging the latter to get married may help but wouldn't necessarily make their mental health vulnerability equivalent.

The second niggle is more interesting to me--you can't separate the experience of same-sex attraction from the cultural forces in and surrounding the gay community and the gay rights movement. And those forces, for all the cultural cache of gay marriage, push hard against the formation of committed and stable relationships. When someone identifies as LGB, their odds of marriage drops preciptously, and the odds of having children drop off a cliff. It's not stigma that's doing this--it's progressive and gay culture.

When I was at BYU, I was pretty libertarian about gay marriage, and thought that allowing gay marriage could help transform gay culture and make it more stable and relationship-focused. But after a couple decades worth of data and years of training as a relationship scientist, it's clear to me that the opposite force ended up being more powerful. As progressive relationship sensibilities have become ascendent, and the purpose of relationships has become more focused on fulfilling personal sexual desires and proclivities--in concert with and in no small part because of the push for gay marriage--marriage rates have themselves tumbled. People are abandoning the institution en masse, and the reason for this should be no mystery: stable relationships are hard work, and if the goal is to fulfill sexual desires, then that goal is, ironically, most easily met alone.

People are starting to clue into the fact that this trend is counterproductive for mental health. As we become increasingly atomized, suicide rates and rates of mental illness and substance use are increasing in precisely the groups that are jumping on the progressive relationship bandwagon--the young, the single, and the irreligious.

And this issue is conflated with the phenomenon of bisexuality. Rates of mental illness among bisexuals are much higher than other groups and can't be adequately explained by stigma or even by relationship formation. And I suspect strongly that this is due to the lack of a stable identity--as people question and experiment with their own sexuality, they question and experiment with the core of who they are. Unmooring from that foundation of identity leaves them without a safe place to retreat to when the winds and waves of life come crashing in. That this would apply doubly to those experimenting with gender identity should be obvious.

So whether or not it's good for gay people to avoid same-sex relationships (and it's worth noting that this does NOT cut them off from all possibility of love, dating, relationships or families), it's clear to me that embracing progressive relationships prescriptions would do substantially more harm to the mental health of the church as a whole than it would do good to the church's gay community. As much as I empathize with the often tragic situation facing those in the church experiencing same-sex attraction, I'd rather do my best to comfort and care for that group within the confines of the gospel than watch the church's strong culture of marriage and family fall by the wayside.
-_-

Good Lord.

- Doc
He basically took the Timothy McVeigh approach and labeled lgbtq collateral damage.
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Re: Anti-Gay Bigotry is alive and well on Sic Et Non…

Post by Moksha »

Why is the Sic et Non blog being so openly hostile to the LGBTQ population rather than the Maxwell Institute?
The Church did not want to be associated with guerilla warfare at the Maxwell Institute, even though the pre-ouster Maxwell Institute had become very adept at crawling through the mud. Now, instead of maintaining squadrons of soldiers, the Maxwell is full of scholars.

Knowing that rampant homophobia is the one issue that will consistently wake the Brethren from their afternoon naps, the former guerilla fighters have plans for taking back the Maxwell by showing the Brethren that they are faithful orthodox defenders, while those scholars at the Maxwell are a bunch of anti-Mormon liberals who might be willing* to suffer the LGBTQ population. Their motto is "Mormon Kobra Kai shall crush the School Marms". Thus attacks against LGBTQ members are necessary and encouraged on the Sic et Non blog. Hope that helps.


*When was the last time the Maxwell Institute fired a sustained volley of musket balls at those "gays"?
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Re: Anti-Gay Bigotry is alive and well on Sic Et Non…

Post by doubtingthomas »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:40 pm
This content is being hosted on Daniel C. Peterson’s Sic et Non blog:

Rates of mental illness among bisexuals are much higher than other groups and can't be adequately explained by stigma or even by relationship formation.

- Doc
There may be some truth to that. "And, despite advances in the fight for LGBTQ equality, a new report finds that young gay people today are even more likely to have attempted suicide than in previous generations."
https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-hea ... ds-rcna724

The researchers blame homophobic bullying, but according to NPR, "Anti-Gay Bias Has Sharply Declined In The US"
https://www.npr.org/transcripts/709567750
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Re: Anti-Gay Bigotry is alive and well on Sic Et Non…

Post by Marcus »

kyler Rasmussen

So whether or not it's good for gay people to avoid same-sex relationships (and it's worth noting that this does NOT cut them off from all possibility of love, dating, relationships or families),
Omg. And this guy calls himself a "relationship scientist"?
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