"Finger Lakes" Theory of Book of Mormon Geography

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Marcus
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Re: "Finger Lakes" Theory of Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Marcus »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:49 pm
Morley wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:46 am
From MG's link to a paper that he, himself, has not read:



MG, you are disingenuous at best.
You are correct in saying that I did not read every link that was posted in the list of footnotes that I linked to. But I DID read the paper that I asked you to read in its entirety. Apparently you didn’t. In that paper the points that this author supposedly brings up are mentioned and explained. Apparently one author MAY disagree with another? Although it’s hard to know since you’re ripping your words out of context.

Go back and follow my instructions lazy bones.😉

Come back when you’ve actually read it. By the way, it wouldn’t hurt to show where your quote/information came from so that one might look at it contextually. Taking things out of context seems to be a problem, at times, around here.

That’s disingenuous.

Regards,
MG
Well, you're caught again. Morley's quote comes from the exact article you refer to above. You first mentioned it below, and he posted his comment and quote in direct response to you:
MG 2.0 wrote:
Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:09 pm
For your benefit let me repost one of the links that you may have failed to read all the way through.

https://archive.bookofmormoncentral.org/node/111 [this is a link to a single article, the one Morley quoted]

Check out the first two narrative extracts. (Santorini, Paupa New Guinea) Go on to read about whirlwinds. Dry wood. Read the Book of Mormon account. Find the matches between the Book of Mormon and the list on page 143. Keep reading....
But here's you, missing the point that the comment Morley quoted IS from the paper you said he should read:
mentalgymnast wrote: In that paper the points that this author supposedly brings up are mentioned and explained. Apparently one author MAY disagree with another?
:lol: it's the same author! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I heard someone say once 'lying is not for the lazy. You have to keep track of not only your lie, but also the details surrounding your lie.' : D
Morley wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:46 am
...MG, you are disingenuous at best.
At BEST is the key phrase.
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Morley
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Re: "Finger Lakes" Theory of Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Morley »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:49 pm
Morley wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:46 am
From MG's link to a paper that he, himself, has not read:



MG, you are disingenuous at best.
You are correct in saying that I did not read every link that was posted in the list of footnotes that I linked to. But I DID read the paper that I asked you to read in its entirety. Apparently you didn’t. In that paper the points that this author supposedly brings up are mentioned and explained. Apparently one author MAY disagree with another? Although it’s hard to know since you’re ripping your words out of context.
If you'd actually read this piece you'd know this isn't the case. The author couldn't find any cases in his research where a fire could not be lit. He says as much.

MG 2.0 wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:49 pm
Go back and follow my instructions lazy bones.😉

Come back when you’ve actually read it. By the way, it wouldn’t hurt to show where your quote/information came from so that one might look at it contextually. Taking things out of context seems to be a problem, at times, around here.

That’s disingenuous.

Regards,
MG
Oh, I read it. It was another one of your snipe hunts.

Since you say you've read it, you'll easily be able to give me a quote that answers my challenge. You know, like I did for you. However, since I actually read the paper, I know that you can't.

Here's your paper, in its most readable format:

https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/in-t ... n-3-nephi/

Pages aren't marked, but you can find what I've referenced by using the find function in your browser. You can, for instance, look for "fire" and see all the times that the author references where he's been able to find folks not being able to light a fire. Or you can look for darkness and find all the times he's been able to find reports of three days of darkness. That way you won't actually have to do any work.

Good luck.
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Morley
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Re: "Finger Lakes" Theory of Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Morley »

Marcus wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 6:07 pm
Morley wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:46 am
...MG, you are disingenuous at best.
At BEST is the key phrase.
You've got it.
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Morley
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Re: "Finger Lakes" Theory of Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Morley »

Morley wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 6:33 pm

If you'd actually read this piece you'd know this isn't the case. The author couldn't find any cases in his research where a fire could not be lit. He says as much.
For your edification, MG: I'm adding this quote that's typical of the piece, in both style and substance. It's in the summary that's part of the second paragraph from the end.
Raffles’s History of Java does include a few pages describing the eruption, and some of the features of the description are similar to the Book of Mormon account (as are the accounts of all volcanic eruptions of this type), but again the account does not mention some of the features of the Book of Mormon account. For example, no mention is made of lightning of any kind, nor of the inability to light fires. Nor does Raffles mention all the types of destruction found in the Book of Mormon account.
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Morley
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Re: "Finger Lakes" Theory of Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Morley »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:09 pm


Check out the first two narrative extracts. (Santorini, Paupa New Guinea) Go on to read about whirlwinds. Dry wood. Read the Book of Mormon account. Find the matches between the Book of Mormon and the list on page 143. Keep reading.
For what it's worth, MG, the list on p.143 isn't a list of the matches the author found in his research. It's a list of claims found in The Book of Mormon. But since you read the paper, you already knew that.
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: "Finger Lakes" Theory of Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

I think the only way a people wouldn’t be able to light a fire after a volcanic eruption is because there was a concurrent limnic eruption:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limnic_eruption

If that were the case the affected population wouldn’t be around to tell the tale, though. The Book of Mormon is in a pickle with that particular claim.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Morley
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Re: "Finger Lakes" Theory of Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Morley »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 7:35 pm
I think the only way a people wouldn’t be able to light a fire after a volcanic eruption is because there was a concurrent limnic eruption:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limnic_eruption

If that were the case the affected population wouldn’t be around to tell the tale, though.
MG's guy, Kowallis, writes about that and basically reaches the same conclusion.
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 7:35 pm
The Book of Mormon is in a pickle with that particular claim.
Indeed.
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Re: "Finger Lakes" Theory of Book of Mormon Geography

Post by MG 2.0 »

Morley wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 6:33 pm

Here's your paper, in its most readable format:

https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/in-t ... n-3-nephi/

Pages aren't marked, but you can find what I've referenced by using the find function in your browser. You can, for instance, look for "fire" and see all the times that the author references where he's been able to find folks not being able to light a fire. Or you can look for darkness and find all the times he's been able to find reports of three days of darkness. That way you won't actually have to do any work.

Good luck.
I stand corrected. The piece you cut and pasted was from the same article I linked to. This piece does mention some instances that are recorded where fire was extinguished by volcanic activity...but more than likely, so were any people that were around. :( I don't have a response to your concern on this point.

At the end of the paper this comment is made:
A question that might be asked by those who doubt the truth of the Book of Mormon account is, “What is so remarkable about the account of a volcanic eruption?” “No doubt,” they would say, “Joseph Smith had read an account of a volcanic eruption and thought it would make a nice backdrop for the destruction he envisioned occurring at Christ’s death.” I would answer that the account is remarkable for its detail and accuracy and that such an account would have been impossible for an uneducated young man to have published in 1830. Volcanoes were neither well understood nor well documented in the early 1800s. Geology was a science still in its infancy. The first real textbook of geology was published the same year as the Book of Mormon, 1830, by Charles Lyell in Great Britain.113 But his descriptions of volcanic eruptions, as well as the few other accounts available in Joseph Smith’s day, are incomplete and do not include all the features found in the Book of Mormon account, features that are now known to occur with large explosive eruptions.

The eruption of Tambora in 1815 was probably the most spectacular eruption in historic times, and it occurred when Joseph Smith was about ten years old. “Surely,” Book of Mormon detractors would say, “Joseph must have read or heard about this eruption? He could easily have modeled his 3 Nephi account after Tambora.” Although it is possible that Joseph read an account of the Tambora eruption somewhere, it is much more probable that Joseph never knew about the eruption of Mount Tambora. The eruption was almost completely unreported at the time it occurred, and detailed available accounts of the eruption are still rare.114 The only substantial accounts that survived from this time were assembled by Sir Thomas Stamford Raffles, British lieutenant governor of Java, and published in 1817.115 Raffles’s History of Java does include a few pages describing the eruption, and some of the features of the description are similar to the Book of Mormon account (as are the accounts of all volcanic eruptions of this type), but again the account does not mention some of the features of the Book of Mormon account. For example, no mention is made of lightning of any kind, nor of the inability to light fires. Nor does Raffles mention all the types of destruction found in the Book of Mormon account. It was not until 1847 that a scientific expedition penetrated to the crater and scientists were able to gain some understanding of what had occurred.116 Even then, the information gathered was not widely distributed.
It's questionable whether Joseph Smith would have had the knowledge necessary to construct his destruction narrative the way it is laid out in the Book of Mormon. You do bring up a good point that needs further research/information. Tambora was unlikely to have been a trigger for the Book of Mormon narrative.

There were enough 'hits' during the destruction narrative in the Book of Mormon (listed previously) to give one pause. It's interesting that this event is referred to multiple times in the Book of Mormon separated by chapters and other events, etc.

Regards,
MG
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Morley
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Re: "Finger Lakes" Theory of Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Morley »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:17 am
I stand corrected. The piece you cut and pasted was from the same article I linked to. This piece does mention some instances that are recorded where fire was extinguished by volcanic activity...but more than likely, so were any people that were around. :( I don't have a response to your concern on this point.
Yeah, the piece is pretty straight forward, with good style and workable prose. it is kind of unfortunate that you wasted all that time being less than honest about having read it. Otherwise, you would have understood the points made, days ago.
MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:17 am

It's questionable whether Joseph Smith would have had the knowledge necessary to construct his destruction narrative the way it is laid out in the Book of Mormon.
Obviously, Joseph Smith did not have the knowledge necessary or there wouldn't be such huge cognative gaps that can't painted over, even by those who are his acolytes and hold BYU PhD brushes
MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:17 am
Tambora was unlikely to have been a trigger for the Book of Mormon narrative.
Who knows.
MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:17 am
There were enough 'hits' during the destruction narrative in the Book of Mormon (listed previously) to give one pause.
I got no pause.
MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:17 am
It's interesting that this event is referred to multiple times in the Book of Mormon separated by chapters and other events, etc.


I'll bite. How is it interesting that this event is told several times and separated by chapters?
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: "Finger Lakes" Theory of Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

> Mormon apologists - “huuuuuuurr duuuuuuuuur, pEoPlE didn't uNdErStAnD vOlCaNoEs iN tHaT eRa”

> Mormons - “See? A Mormon apologist said something I didn’t read, but they have a degree in something and they used a lot of words that somehow alleviated my headaches.”

> Human Being in the Real World - “The Book of Mormon literally says people couldn’t light fires for three days. That is an outright falsehood despite the apologists’ spin.”

> Mormon - “ :geek:

> Human Being in the Real World - “Does that move the needle for you at all with regard to the Book of Mormon’s inauthenticity?”

> Mormon - “No.”

RINSE AND REPEAT A THOUSAND TIMES.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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