dantana, some years back I spent some time studying theological views on this question. I think I did it enough to get some understanding of what people have said. I also was left with a belief that none of the theological systems really cover all of the question. Uncertainty remains beyond what peoples logic have covered.dantana wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:48 pmI left the church and also belief in Christianity just a few years after my mission, so I just really don't have much knowledge or memory of ecclesiastical studies. - Saved by grace, not by works - is a phrase we are all familiar with. Falling back on my mission days thinking when hearing that phrase - yes, we are saved by grace, but you still gotta do the work. You still have to be a decent human.huckelberry wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:09 pm
Some Christians comment that it appears Mormons are working their way to heaven. They have to complete enough necessary works. The contrasting view is , Mercy means ALL of your sins are forgiven . No adding up involved.
I do get it though, when someone excepts Jesus into their heart and is born again, they automatically are compelled to do good things. I still want to challenge though that every one of these people that become born again, do so at different levels of faith, or conviction. Everyone, and I do mean everyone is going to have some level of doubt, since no one actually knows for scientific certainty what happens to the consciousness when we die.
And so, someone, god, is going to have to make some tough calls as to what level of born again conviction makes the cut.
I think Physics guy has good points. It is also pleasantly free of some of those old arguments instead allowing God to be able to use some wisdom.
For me it is important to exchange the idea of testing folks for the idea of enabling a creation where people are enabled to fulfill the best possibilities instead of the worse. In an important sense this is not just an individual thing but a group project for the human family. There are fundamental differences between attitudes of wanting to contribute in a positive way and attitudes of preferring selfish resentment and its destructive qualities.
I am put off by some born again talk. I think hope and love being helped to life by a spiritual experience happens to people. I doubt that is the same as a certain level of belief in some religious doctrine. People may crank up a bunch of belief and involve little spiritual renewal. I am put off by the phrase automatically compelled to do good things. I think instead people spiritually see the value in hope and love. They in using their own minds start looking for more constructive choices.
’. So this way every drug addled piece of trash who’s been shot to death or died on ventilator because they spent the previous year being a raging asshole on Facebook will apparently be in heaven and ‘the fam’ will see them again. A baby rapist and murderer who gut prostitutes are going to heaven because Jesus gave them a wink and a nod after they accepted Him into their hearts, while little Johnny candy stealer is getting rocked by Satan for eternity because why not. The absurdity and larping Christians do to make this work in their brains is an endless loop of Biblical cherry picking and mental gymnastics. It’s tiresome, and yet, them Christians have an endless reservoir for denial because, I dunno, annihilation is too fearsome a prospect for their tummies. Best to believe lil’ Johnny the Candy Stealer is Satan’s pleasure serf from now on.