Shulem Cracks Book of Mormon Geography

[Marcus]

I think Shulem has found the missing puzzle piece to the imagination of Joe's novel. Joe was a storyteller and storytellers tell stories. Joe was treasure digger and treasure diggers dig for treasure and/or tell stories about treasure digging. It seems to me a young storyteller would tell stories about what he saw around him and events that were happening around him. Shulem has shown that Joe had events and things around him that made his novel fit the puzzle. Joe had maps, lots of maps. Joe had the Late War, View of the Hebrews, the canal job on Delmarva, the Captain Kidd treasure digging adventure and more. Joe had everything his imagination needed to create his novel right in front of him.

Shulem has solved the mystery and has to date the best fitting explanations for the geography of Joe's imaginary novel.

Kudos for the great work and for sharing it with us.

Yes, it does work well for those that have already decided that the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction at the outset.

You are coming from the standpoint that this is decided in advance. In contrast, Shulem is presenting information that helps people making that decision.

Or for those that haven’t developed a testimony concerning it’s witness of Jesus Christ.

More of the same. You start with a rigidly fixed position, and you end up fighting these quixotic battles trying to justify something completely insupportable. But please, don't stop sharing it with us here. It's an interesting insight into what it takes to maintain the traditional Mormon belief position these days. I can't fathom the damage this does to rational thinking, or how compartmentalized traditional thinking has to be to maintain this, but obviously some do it, so thanks for sharing.

[MG 2.0]

I can't fathom the damage this does to rational thinking, or how compartmentalized traditional thinking has to be to maintain this, but obviously some do it, so thanks for sharing.

Yep. You’re welcome.

It is amazing how brains approach reality in different ways. One might think we should all use our logic and reason and come to the same conclusions, right? I also find it interesting to dig into the mind of an unbeliever and try to understand why they reject God.

I still can’t quite figure it out.

I came back into this thread to respond to a couple of posts. I think we probably ought to leave the thread mostly intact for the purpose for which it was made.

I’ll leave this thread to it’s original purpose.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

I think Shulem has found the missing puzzle piece to the imagination of Joe's novel. Joe was a storyteller and storytellers tell stories. Joe was treasure digger and treasure diggers dig for treasure and/or tell stories about treasure digging. It seems to me a young storyteller would tell stories about what he saw around him and events that were happening around him. Shulem has shown that Joe had events and things around him that made his novel fit the puzzle. Joe had maps, lots of maps. Joe had the Late War, View of the Hebrews, the canal job on Delmarva, the Captain Kidd treasure digging adventure and more. Joe had everything his imagination needed to create his novel right in front of him.

Shulem has solved the mystery and has to date the best fitting explanations for the geography of Joe's imaginary novel.

Kudos for the great work and for sharing it with us.

So much agreement!! It is quite fascinating to see Shulem lay out how this information might have influenced Smith's thought process as he constructed his oral story-telling.

[Shulem]

Joe had everything his imagination needed to create his novel right in front of him.

And Smith had a copy of the King James Bible with all it's warts and imperfections rather than the pure words of Isaiah that would have been etched on Laban's brass plates for Nephi & Mormon to commit to memory and properly record on gold leaf. But no, Smith assumed that by making a little variation to the KJV it would appear as if he produced the original script from the brass plates via the golden plates. The KJV is like Delmarva and reveals the real footprints of the Book of Mormon! Here is a formula:

KJV + Delmarva = Book of Mormon

The result: FRAUD

[Shulem]

Joe was treasure digger and treasure diggers dig for treasure and/or tell stories about treasure digging.

Interestingly enough there is eyewitness testimony that those so-called "slippery treasures" were more than just slippery from a point of view of not being able to keep them but they literally would sink back into the ground as if by magic because of spirits and forces from the unseen world would snatch the treasures away. Smith himself blamed those forces for not being able to recover treasures. But finally, he got the gold plates and he won one over on the evil spirits through the charms of Nephi and Moroni.

Look at what the apologists say and notice how they deflect and present their argument on parallels. Everything for the apologist is a parallel as if to validate their own interpretation and ignore uncomfortable things that are not faith promoting:

Although it has been argued that the language and imagery of “slippery treasure” in the Book of Mormon must be a nod to nineteenth-century treasure digging, which included a belief in “guardian demons [that] moved buried treasures to different locations when people dug for them,” there are, in fact, more compelling ancient parallels for this language and imagery. “While the vocabulary and concept [of slippery treasure] clearly parallel early American treasure-seeking concepts, such ideas were not exclusive to that time period,” and they do not account for the overarching thrust of Samuel’s prophecy in Helaman 13 or the overall message of the rest of the Book of Mormon.

Thus we see, if the apologists can find parallels from other sources they can avoid the obvious FACT that Smith was a money digger and the occult like practices that were involved with such digs. Therefore, they look elsewhere to justify the means by changing the original meaning. The apologist continues with: "In the minds of Samuel and Mormon, the “slipperiness” of treasure in the Book of Mormon is not because a would-be treasure seeker was foiled by a guardian spirit, but because “the earth [and its inhabitants are] so far removed from Yahweh’s protection that the laws of nature are violated; items will not stay put."

BUT there is no mind of Samuel or Mormon! It was all the mind of Joseph Smith putting on a mask and pretending to be them. It all came from Joseph Smith! Smith was Mormon. Smith was Moroni! The slippery treasures spoken of in the Book of Mormon were the same kind of slippery treasures young Joseph failed to dig up while going out on his cult-like digs looking for treasure. Spirits, charms, and unseen forces are the things that were on Smith's mind. I'm sure Dan Vogel will agree with me on this point.

I so testify,

In the name of Joseph Smith,

Amen.

[Shulem]

Yes, it does work well for those that have already decided that the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction at the outset. Or for those that haven’t developed a testimony concerning it’s witness of Jesus Christ.

Yes it works well, MG.

Every single nonmember of the Church considers the Book of Mormon as a work of fiction. Nonmembers can read KJV Isaiah in the Book of Mormon and realize that the source is from *that* Bible. Nonmembers can look at a map of Delmarva and compare it with the geography described in the Book of Mormon and realize that is The Place.

Christians as a whole only make up 31% of the world population and Mormons are only a drop in the bucket. Christians do not accept the idea that the Book of Mormon is a true witness of Jesus Christ but recognize the book as a pious fraud. Only those who pray to have a recognition beyond the natural state get a witness that the book is true. Those people quit whatever religion they may be in at the time and become Mormons.

Mormons should be able to see for themselves that Delmarva satisfies the geography of the Book of Mormon. The problem is there is no archeological evidence and that is why Mormons only consider places where they can't find any evidence, except for Delmarva. Go figure. Either way, there is no evidence and never will be any evidence.

[Shulem]

Or for those that haven’t developed a testimony concerning it’s witness of Jesus Christ.

MG,

I realize you believe the Book of Mormon is a witness of Christ on many different levels, but mostly spiritual. I assume you believe that Christ actually came down and ministered on the temple steps of Bountiful. I get that. Fine.

But, I have to wonder if YOU have determined for yourself and at what level of surety have you come to that determination of the location of the NARROW NECK, the neck in which I've made a big deal about in these threads. Do you have a personal belief on where that neck is and can show me on the map, please? Now, if you aren't positive about the narrow neck, then perhaps you will be willing to relate how much you do believe, on a scale of 1-10.

MG, if you don't know the actual location of that neck, will you pray about it and get a revelation by asking God? Tell God that Shulem sent you and is asking you to ask him where the neck is. I realize you are sticking your neck out in doing this. Does it sound like a risky proposition on your part? Would it be tempting God? Don't you have a right to know where that neck is? Don't we all?

So, what will it be?

[MG 2.0]

MG, if you don't know the actual location of that neck, will you pray about it and get a revelation by asking God? Tell God that Shulem sent you and is asking you to ask him where the neck is.

Funny man.

Regards,
MG

[Philo Sofee]

Or for those that haven’t developed a testimony concerning it’s witness of Jesus Christ.

MG,

I realize you believe the Book of Mormon is a witness of Christ on many different levels, but mostly spiritual. I assume you believe that Christ actually came down and ministered on the temple steps of Bountiful. I get that. Fine.

But, I have to wonder if YOU have determined for yourself and at what level of surety have you come to that determination of the location of the NARROW NECK, the neck in which I've made a big deal about in these threads. Do you have a personal belief on where that neck is and can show me on the map, please? Now, if you aren't positive about the narrow neck, then perhaps you will be willing to relate how much you do believe, on a scale of 1-10.

MG, if you don't know the actual location of that neck, will you pray about it and get a revelation by asking God? Tell God that Shulem sent you and is asking you to ask him where the neck is. I realize you are sticking your neck out in doing this. Does it sound like a risky proposition on your part? Would it be tempting God? Don't you have a right to know where that neck is? Don't we all?

So, what will it be?

Laying the gauntlet down in Mormon style. Oooooooooooo Shulem! You gittin tough man! if there is ANY confusion, we were brainwashed taught incessantly to pray to know the truth of anything you needed or wanted. So when it's turned back onto Mormons, they have such cool and neato sounding loop holes like "Oh, that isn't necessary for your salvation." Well, neither are the damn car keys, but Jesus works 24/7 finding them for folks!

[Shulem]

MG, if you don't know the actual location of that neck, will you pray about it and get a revelation by asking God? Tell God that Shulem sent you and is asking you to ask him where the neck is.

Funny man.

Regards,
MG

Maybe it is a little funny but it's a serious question to be asked. That narrow neck just north of Bountiful where Jesus walked.

I guess the answer is no. I figured it would be.