DiscussMormonism.com

MG 2.0 wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:37 pm

I’m going to let this one sit and request that you do a bit more reading/research on your own.

The Mormon church doesn't think child marriage is wrong. In some countries the missionaries tell underage girls to get married. Some bishops have no problem performing the wedding ceremonies.

doubtingthomas wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:45 pm

Marcus wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:42 pm

No. I'm asking you a specific question about YOUR comment:

MG isn't trolling. Some Mormon apologists believe Muhammad was a prophet of god.

Well, they at least pay lip service to it. No one in the church actually analyzes and studies the Koran section by section like they do the D&C or Book of Mormon. I doubt 1 in 12,000,000 actually bother studying anything about Muhammad or his religion. It is a yarn, a way to make them believe they are getting along with the world and are generous and broad minded. It's all eyewash and window dressing. If the GA's don't quote Muhammad or the Koran or talk about him, the general membership won't even bat an eye even imagining such a person even actually existed.

Bought Yahoo wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:00 pm

My friend, a Persian Muslim, says that he and his family would be killed if he ever converted to Christianity.

Morley wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:19 am

Forgive me, Counselor, but for a half dozen different reasons, this sounds like BS.

Where does this friend of yours live?

Bought Yahoo wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:36 pm

Sure bud.

And a "Sure bud" back to you, Bought. I'm not certain who is lying. You? Or your "friend"?

Here's my partial list as to why this is almost certainly BS.

1) No one from Iran self-identifies as a "Persian Muslim." If your friend is from Iran, he's most likely a Shi'a Muslim. He would also call himself an Iranian, not a Persian. The only people who call themselves Persians are those who afraid of the implications of some kind of bigoted prejudice against the word Iran. Since he's your "friend," he'd be loud and proud about being both Iranian and Shi'a. Someone saying they're a Persian Muslim would be like a Utah Mormon introducing themselves as a Deseret Christian.

2) Who is it who is going to kill your friend and his family? If he lives in the West, no one. If he lives in Iran, no one. If he lives in Saudi Arabia maybe someone (though I doubt it)--but in that case, he's probably not a "Persian Muslim."

3) Neither Iranians nor Shi'as have a tradition of honor killings that one might find, for instance, among Sunnis in Pakistan. Even then, it would be one's own family who would carry out the honor killing. Is his sister gong to murder him if he converts to Catholicism?

4) My brother-in-law was raised a Shi'a Muslim in Iran. He's now an Evangelical Christian in the US. He's not dead, nor is his family, either here or back in Iran. And I'm not expecting anyone to be murdered anytime soon.

5) We have extremely close friends here in the US who were Baháʼís in Iran. Converting to Baháʼísm from Islam is seen as a much worse sin than converting to Christianity (because Baháʼís aren't considered to be People of the Book). These friends and their children were persecuted by the government, and couldn't get employment or access to higher education. But they weren't killed or even imprisoned--even in the current repressive climate under the mullahs. They still retain their Iranian citizenship and are free to travel in the country.

6) I've spent a reasonable amount of time in the Middle East and have friends and family the area. Yes, there are religious minorities in these countries. No, they don't enjoy the same rights as Muslims--but they aren't killed. Though I'll grant it might be possible (especially in some of the gulf states) I've never heard of anyone being killed because they converted from Islam to another religion.

7) Religious minorities in and around the Middle East often assume different identities depending on who they're with. In Pakistan, we had a Christian driver whose family had converted partially because they thought it would help them get jobs with the consulate. This driver went by a different name when he introduced himself to fellow countrymen who were Muslims. However, though one does not necessarily advertise one's minority religion, it's not generally out of fear of being killed.

I’m guessing BY, who often lashes out with “idiot” when someone challenges his claims, is being idiotic.

Thanks, Morley, I was mostly sold on BY making it up when he opened with “my friend”, but your post convinced me.

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:25 pm

doubtingthomas wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:45 pm

MG isn't trolling. Some Mormon apologists believe Muhammad was a prophet of god.

Well, they at least pay lip service to it. No one in the church actually analyzes and studies the Koran section by section like they do the D&C or Book of Mormon. I doubt 1 in 12,000,000 actually bother studying anything about Muhammad or his religion. It is a yarn, a way to make them believe they are getting along with the world and are generous and broad minded. It's all eyewash and window dressing. If the GA's don't quote Muhammad or the Koran or talk about him, the general membership won't even bat an eye even imagining such a person even actually existed.

You place WAY to much emphasis on what church leaders do or do not say and think, in certain regards, and how much influence this has on individual members.

I’m sure that as a member of the church you, at times, experienced independent thought. And if you wanted to read the Koran, I would suppose there was no one stopping you. I can’t think of any restrictions that have been placed on what I can or cannot read or learn, if I feel compelled and/or want to.

I’m sure that you may have even had an inkling that Mohammad was a prophet!

Regards,
MG

MG 2.0 wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 11:19 pm

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:25 pm

Well, they at least pay lip service to it. No one in the church actually analyzes and studies the Koran section by section like they do the D&C or Book of Mormon. I doubt 1 in 12,000,000 actually bother studying anything about Muhammad or his religion. It is a yarn, a way to make them believe they are getting along with the world and are generous and broad minded. It's all eyewash and window dressing. If the GA's don't quote Muhammad or the Koran or talk about him, the general membership won't even bat an eye even imagining such a person even actually existed.

You place WAY to much emphasis on what church leaders do or do not say and think, in certain regards, and how much influence this has on individual members.

I’m sure that as a member of the church you, at times, experienced independent thought. And if you wanted to read the Koran, I would suppose there was no one stopping you. I can’t think of any restrictions that have been placed on what I can or cannot read or learn, if I feel compelled and/or want to.

I’m sure that you may have even had an inkling that Mohammad was a prophet!

Regards,
MG

Yes, indeed I do place emphasis on church leaders, as do all other FAITHFUL Mormons who were brainwashed and indoctrinated by Ezra Taft Benson's FOLLOW THE PROPHET, 14 FUNDAMENTALS ***ALL*** Mormons HAVE to follow, believe, and live in order to have the Holy Ghost in their lives. THIS was absolutely drilled into me during 4 years of Seminary. It was DRILLED into me during church, Mutual, and Family Home Evening. Quit pretending the leaders are far less important. The leaders have never actually studied Islam and Muhammad on a church wide perspective.

The idea of Muhammad being a prophet is mere lip service. We all know that who came through the church's brainwashing through the 1960's - 1980's...The ONLY prophets we EVER, and this cannot be over-emphasized - heard about was the Mormon ones. NO ONE ELSE need apply. And certainly NO ONE ELSE was ever studied, or told to be emulated in any manner of any aspect of our lives. You know this... Being a myopic faithful Mormon youth, I did what I was told, I FOLLOWED... Muhammad was literally never brought up, not even for comparison purposes as being like a Mormon Prophet.

I knew what side of the bread was buttered, and it was not Muhammad or Islamic bread we were constantly, non-stop, totally absorbed in FROM THE LEADERS in S.L.C., through the hierarchy, down through the Stake Presidents, to the Bishops, to the Young Men's leaders. You can quit pretending it didn't happen MG. Mormonism will NEVER *OFFICIALLY* put Muhammad in their little Prophet Boys Club, e.g., it's all lip service from an odd scholar here or every now and rarely, very rarely again, someone else, but NOT as doctrine, not as truth, and not as real, actual, or inspired by the "real" Holy Ghost as Mormon Prophets. YOU KNOW THIS, STOP PRETENDING IT IS ODD TO YOU.

Neither you nor I have ever heard a General Conference talk of leaders saying follow Muhammad, study his revelations and scriptures, and by the power of the Holy Ghost you can know the truthfulness of those things. That will NEVER happen, e.g., it's all just lip service MG. Muhammad belonged to that "Mormon" part of history called "The Great Apostasy" wherein there was NO revelation for over 1800 years. THIS was what I was taught to teach as a missionary after hearing it for 4 years in Seminary and 15 years earlier from the first minute of my life up to Seminary time.

And I can promise you this... anyone on these boards who came up through the Ezra Taft Benson period will easily grasp what I have emphasized here, since they as well, lived through the era... NO ONE in Mormonism believes in Muhammad as a true prophet, and by following his teachings and praying and daily scripture study of the Koran, can get to the Celestial Kingdom. Absolutely ***NO ONE***

Mormonism has certainly written manuals for decades on the lives of the Prophets, such as Brigham Young, John Taylor, George Albert Smith..... you know, the REAL prophets, the only actual prophets, the Mormon ones, to study for a year at a time for many years in priesthood meeting. There has never been a manual for the priesthood to study on Muhammad, that a year is spent in reading about him and his wonderful works, and studying, pondering and praying about the truthfulness of his Koran. THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN, and we all truly know it.

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 11:28 pm

MG 2.0 wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 11:19 pm

You place WAY to much emphasis on what church leaders do or do not say and think, in certain regards, and how much influence this has on individual members.

I’m sure that as a member of the church you, at times, experienced independent thought. And if you wanted to read the Koran, I would suppose there was no one stopping you. I can’t think of any restrictions that have been placed on what I can or cannot read or learn, if I feel compelled and/or want to.

I’m sure that you may have even had an inkling that Mohammad was a prophet!

Regards,
MG

Yes, indeed I do, as do all other FAITHFUL Mormons who were brainwashed and indoctrinated by Ezra Taft Benson's FOLLOW THE PROPHET, 14 FUNDAMENTALS ***ALL*** Mormons HAVE to follow, believe, and live in order to have the Holy Ghost in their lives. THIS was absolutely drilled into me during 4 years of Seminary. It was DRILLED into me during church, Mutual, and Family Home Evening. Quit pretending the leaders are far less important.

Interesting. I grew up knowing/being aware of the same, but it was not drilled into me by any stretch. I went on with reading Sunstone and Dialogue without any compunction to think I was going to hell by doing so. His speech was a concern for me, yes. I struggled with it, yes. But I came to see that BRM was, in some respects, a brash and individualistic man who had a thing about putting his ideas out there as though they were “diamond truths”. Some of what he spoke rang true, and other stuff didn’t. I do think that his testimony of Christ was sincere and based upon his own experience, however.

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 11:28 pm

The leaders have never actually studied Islam and Muhammad on a church wide perspective.

No surprise there.

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 11:28 pm

The idea of Muhammad being a prophet is mere lip service.

Not in my case or in that of others I have had conversations with.

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 11:28 pm

We all know that who came through the church's brainwashing through the 1960's - 1980's...The ONLY prophets we EVER, and this cannot be over-emphasized - heard about was the Mormon ones.

Again, no big surprise there. That was and is not their stewardship.

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 11:28 pm

NO ONE ELSE need apply.

The stewardship of Mohammad was his, The stewardship of the prophets and apostles of the CofJCofLDS is theirs.

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 11:28 pm

And certainly NO ONE ELSE was ever studied, or told to be emulated in any manner of any aspect of our lives.

As I think I’ve mentioned, I think you may have grown up with a very narrow view of what was available to learn and experience. That was YOUR choice. I’m sorry that this has impacted the way you view thongs now.

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 11:28 pm

You know this... Being a myopic faithful Mormon youth, I did what I was told, I FOLLOWED...

Basically, I did too.

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 11:28 pm

Muhammad was literally never brought up, not even for comparison purposes as being like a Mormon Prophet.

I learned what I did learn on my own. Admittedly more as I grew older.

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 11:28 pm

I knew what side of the bread was buttered, and it was not Muhammad or Islamic bread we were constantly, non-stop, totally absorbed in FROM THE LEADERS in S.L.C., through the hierarchy, down through the Stake Presidents, to the Bishops, to the Young Men's leaders.

Again, no surprise there. That was/is not their stewardship.

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 11:28 pm

You can quit pretending it didn't happen MG.

We both grew up at about the same time. I may even be a bit older than you. Everything you’ve mentioned, yes, I experienced it too. But differently apparently.

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 11:28 pm

Mormonism will NEVER *OFFICIALLY* put Muhammad in their little Prophet Boys Club, e.g.,

I know I’m sound like a broken record, but again, that’s not their purview. It is not expected that they would walk all over the stewardship of other prophets that have come along. There were some Chinese/Oriental folks we could throw in there too.

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 11:28 pm

it's all lip service from an odd scholar here or every now and rarely, very rarely again, someone else, but NOT as doctrine, not as truth, and not as real, actual, or inspired by the "real" Holy Ghost as Mormon Prophets. YOU KNOW THIS, STOP PRETENDING IT IS ODD TO YOU.

I see in some your Backyard Professor videos a LOT of books in the background. Did you start reading them only after you left the church? Me thinks that if you had been a bit more well read at an earlier time your rants would not be quite as verbose/effusive as they are now.

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 11:28 pm

Neither you nor I have ever heard a General Conference talk of leaders saying follow Muhammad, study his revelations and scriptures, and by the power of the Holy Ghost you can know the truthfulness of those things. That will NEVER happen, e.g., it's all just lip service MG.

And for the last time, I would NEVER expect them to. It’s almost as if we came from to different worlds of Mormonism.

I do think that there are many from our generation who have, admittedly, had to struggle with BRM/Packer/Peterson syndrome.

And it isn’t a walk in the park. I empathize with you.

Regards,
MG

OF COURSE it is within their purview MG. Good Lord will you quit pretending here? WHAT are we taught and declared to TEACH? The Prophet is a Prophet for the ENTIRE WORLD. All your rinky-dink apologetics can't change that FUNDAMENTAL attitude which the leaders have talked the vast majority of their followers to believe.
A prophet is to WARN THE WORLD when disasters will strike, HOW to prepare for Jesus's Second Coming, etc. There has NEVER been ***ANY*** kind of departmentalization about this, that is, until the rise of apologetics within Mormonism.

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 26, 2022 12:05 am

OF COURSE it is within their purview MG. Good Lord will you quit pretending here?

No pretense. But I’m not going to convince you of that.

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 26, 2022 12:05 am

WHAT are we taught and declared to TEACH? The Prophet is a Prophet for the ENTIRE WORLD.@

Yes, no conflict.

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 26, 2022 12:05 am

All your rinky-dink apologetics can't change that FUNDAMENTAL attitude which the leaders have talked the vast majority of their followers to believe.

Again, you have limited yourself in the views of reality that are available AND MAKE PERFECT SENSE.

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 26, 2022 12:05 am

A prophet is to WARN THE WORLD when disasters will strike, HOW to prepare for Jesus's Second Coming, etc. There has NEVER been ***ANY*** kind of departmentalization about this, that is, until the rise of apologetics within Mormonism.

I do agree with you that within certain parameters a prophet’s stewardship includes warning the world. Most importantly to repent and come unto Christ. MANY are ignoring that call and rationalizing their way around it.

And that is sad.

By the way, if you truly believe that my thoughts on various matters are just “rinky-dink” then don’t respond. Your responses, honestly, from where I’m sitting ARE rinky-dink.

No offense intended.

Regards,
MG

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 26, 2022 12:05 am

OF COURSE it is within their purview MG. Good Lord will you quit pretending here? WHAT are we taught and declared to TEACH? The Prophet is a Prophet for the ENTIRE WORLD. All your rinky-dink apologetics can't change that FUNDAMENTAL attitude which the leaders have talked the vast majority of their followers to believe.
A prophet is to WARN THE WORLD when disasters will strike, HOW to prepare for Jesus's Second Coming, etc. There has NEVER been ***ANY*** kind of departmentalization about this, that is, until the rise of apologetics within Mormonism.

MG seems like many Mormons in having concocted a mental model for Mormonism that does not correspond to the actual Mormonism that presently exists. It's a very common thing for someone who is theologically curious to remain within a faith that is actually anti-philosophical and anti-theological.

It is true that during the David O. McKay years, there were teachings about how other religions had aspects of the truth. But these teachings were put onto the doctrinal shelf by the far-right lunatic Ezra Benson and have not been taken down subsequently.

I repeatedly heard in the scores of wards I attended over the years (and yes, I do mean scores) that Islam was a religion of Satan and that Satan had appeared to Mohammed as an angel of light. I personally had Holy Ghost fuzzy feeling about this teaching. The general authorities have never said such a thing but many members believe Islam is Satanic. At best, Islam is seen as just another religion of man, preaching false doctrines.