Backyard Professor Live Discussion on the Kevin Barney Semitic Adaptation Theory of the Book of Abraham

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Philo Sofee
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Re: Backyard Professor Live Discussion on the Kevin Barney Semitic Adaptation Theory of the Book of Abraham

Post by Philo Sofee »

Thanks Shulem, yer awesome
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Re: Backyard Professor Live Discussion on the Kevin Barney Semitic Adaptation Theory of the Book of Abraham

Post by huckelberry »

I am not one who has carefully studied this problem. It was not long after I had stopped believing that at my parents home I read a church magazine with Nibly's article about the Papyrus being returned to the church. He fronted this theory that there was encoded in the Egyptian a Hebrew or something transmission of Abrahams writing. I remember thinking that was one of the most outlandish proposals I had ever encountered. To float something like that surely indicates there must be a severe problem with the ancient documents.

So is there any refinement from Nibley? I doubt it.
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Re: Backyard Professor Live Discussion on the Kevin Barney Semitic Adaptation Theory of the Book of Abraham

Post by dastardly stem »

Yes. Apologists of all types tend to think if they can imagine a theory it somehow explains something. "well we still have an out because we imagine this happening..."

No, possibility doesn't become probability simply because someone said it. Truth is they don't want to consider what's probable, because in each case, they lose. And that's a tough spot we ought to appreciate.

If God inspired the Book of Abraham why has it always been so ignored except for one passage? All this ink, as it were, devoted to defending this scripture that no one really cares about.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
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Shulem
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THE BUCK STOPS AT 3,500 YEARS

Post by Shulem »

Philo,

I'm going to paste a rather long post from another thread that demonstrates the authoritative nature of Joseph Smith's 3,500 year declaration made to the entire Church and the world regarding the age of the papyrus -- the rolls of Abraham & Joseph. This is a revelation and the word of God to the world given through Joseph Smith.

I definitely think it's worth posting this because it serves as the BAR in which apologists have to jump over in order to save themselves by throwing Joseph Smith under the bus and in effect killing his own words with their apologetic nonsense. We have Joseph Smith's words and they are sharper than the words of the apologists or any sword they think they can forge to defend their so-called truths. Gee, Muhlestein, Lindsay, Barney, Ed1, MG, and all the apologists sink in quicksand in making any attempt to dispute it. Smith's word is final, PERIOD! Not only have the apologists lost the battle they have lost the war. It's over!

We have won the war! VICTORY!

Shulem wrote:
Tue Aug 31, 2021 5:55 pm

The saints in Nauvoo depended entirely upon what the prophet Joseph Smith had to say about the age of the papyrus. When Smith spoke authoritatively it was a God breathed statement uttered from the mouth of Jesus Christ, standing in the very presence of his closest brother, the Holy Ghost. The statement is binding upon the whole church.

How old was the papyrus found clutched within the arms of the mummies which held them?

What did GOD say?

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Shulem wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:08 pm
Jeff Lindsay | Nov 10, 2017 wrote:One of the most interesting and original portions that draw upon Gee’s extensive scholarship is his discussion of the ancient owners of the papyri in Chapter 5. The owners “were among the most literate and educated people of Ptolemaic Egypt” and one of them, Horos, “served as prophet in three different temples in the Karnak temple complex” (p. 59). Situated in Thebes, he would have had access to grant “Theban temple libraries, containing narratives, reference works, and manuals, as well as scrolls on religion, ritual, and history” (p. 61). Further,

Ptolemaic Thebes had a sizable Jewish population; some of them served as the tax collectors. The Egyptian religion of the time was eclectic. Foreign elements like deities and rites—including those from the Greek religion and Judaism—were added to Egyptian practices. The papyri owners also lived at a time when stories about Abraham circulated in Egypt. If any ancient Egyptians were in a position to know about Abraham, it was the Theban priests. (p. 61)

You do realize that Gee is contradicting solemn and authoritative statements made by Joseph Smith in that the papyrus and mummies were much older than the Ptolemaic era? I realize that Gee is trying to align the evidence of the age of the papyrus and the mummies they possessed with conventional Egyptology but Smith is officially on record for having declared his own wisdom through God. Smith is on record for stating that the mummies and the papyrus on their persons were entombed for some 3,500 years. Smith stated this knowledge as having come from the supreme source of the Holy Ghost and sealed his declaration by the authority of the priesthood and in the name of Jesus Christ.

So, you see, Gee’s argument is with Joseph Smith. Here is indisputable black and white proof to that effect:

JOSEPH SMITH wrote:
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Now let me ask one for facts: was there ever such a place on the earth as Egypt? Geography says yes; ancient history says yes; and the Bible says yes . . .

Besides these tangible facts, so easily proven and demonstrated by simple rules of testimony unimpeached, the art (now lost) of embalming human bodies, and preserving them in the catacombs of Egypt, whereby men, women and children as mummies, after a lapse of near three thousand five hundred years, come forth among the living, and although dead, the papyrus which has lived in their bosoms, unharmed, speaks for them, in language like the sound of an earthquake: Ecce veritas! Ecce cadaveros. Behold the truth! Behold the mummies!


followed by:

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Shulem wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:46 am
Please allow me to refer back to the earlier reference I cited in this thread about Smith making grandeur statements of his ability to represent the papyrus and mummies as truly ancient and on the order of being some 3,500 years old! That’s important because Smith was roughly dating the relics in his possession to that era and was not just feign claiming a guess but was invoking the very name of JESUS CHRIST and the authority of the priesthood vested in him as prophet, seer, and revelator. So, if you will permit me, I’d like to repost that reference because it provides an opening statement to the authority by which Joseph Smith was endorsing his Book of Abraham and was doing so under the divine auspice of God himself through the manifestation of the Holy Ghost.

JOSEPH SMITH wrote:
TIMES AND SEASONS
"Truth will prevail."
Vol. IV. No. 24.] CITY OF NAUVOO, ILL. November 1, 1843. [Whole No. 84.

HISTORY OF JOSEPH SMITH.


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Now let me ask one for facts: was there ever such a place on the earth as Egypt? Geography says yes; ancient history says yes; and the Bible says yes . . .

Besides these tangible facts, so easily proven and demonstrated by simple rules of testimony unimpeached, the art (now lost) of embalming human bodies, and preserving them in the catacombs of Egypt, whereby men, women and children as mummies, after a lapse of near three thousand five hundred years, come forth among the living, and although dead, the papyrus which has lived in their bosoms, unharmed, speaks for them, in language like the sound of an earthquake: Ecce veritas! Ecce cadaveros. Behold the truth! Behold the mummies!


followed by:

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Joseph Smith states the above as diamond truth. The declaration of the truth of his statement is sealed by the power of the Holy Melchizedek Priesthood and in the name of Jesus Christ and the sublime power of God. It is thus given as the word of God to the entire world to include Presidents and Emperors.

The mummies and the papyri are some 3,500 years old.

That *IS* the word of God. Amen.
Shulem wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:31 pm
Please, AGAIN, consider the solemn statement made by Joseph Smith concerning the age of the papyrus and the mummies because I have something further to add in order to help better understand the full implications of what Smith was expressing.

JOSEPH SMITH wrote:
TIMES AND SEASONS
"Truth will prevail."
Vol. IV. No. 24.] CITY OF NAUVOO, ILL. November 1, 1843. [Whole No. 84.

HISTORY OF JOSEPH SMITH.


Besides these tangible facts, so easily proven and demonstrated by simple rules of testimony unimpeached, the art (now lost) of embalming human bodies, and preserving them in the catacombs of Egypt, whereby men, women and children as mummies, after a lapse of near three thousand five hundred years, come forth among the living, and although dead, the papyrus which has lived in their bosoms, unharmed, speaks for them, in language like the sound of an earthquake: Ecce veritas! Ecce cadaveros. Behold the truth! Behold the mummies!

Let us refer to the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants which also included the Lectures on Faith published in Church canon until 1921 when they were removed. The Lectures of Faith was a source of information in which Smith taught biblical chronology and much of that is also still in the original canon of the D&C:

LECTURE SECOND. Of Faith. SECTION II. 53 wrote:We have now traced the chronology of the world, agreeably to the account given in our present Bible, from Adam to Abraham, and have clearly determined, beyond the power of controversy, that there was no difficulty in preserving the knowledge of God in the world, from the creation of Adam, and the manifestation made to his immediate descendants, as set forth in the former part of this lecture, so that the students, in this class need not have any dubiety resting on their minds, on this subject; for they can easily see, that it is impossible for it to be otherwise; but that the knowledge of the existence of a God, must have continued from father to son, as a matter of tradition, at least. For we cannot suppose, that a knowledge of this important fact, could have existed in the mind of any of the before mentioned individuals, without their having made it known to their posterity.

LECTURE II gives a key point in understanding chronology particular to the dating of Abraham:

50 wrote:Reu died in the, 2026th year of the world, Serug in 2049th, Terah in the 2083rd, Arphaxed in the 2096th, Salah in the 2126th, 'Shem in the 2158th, Abraham in the 2183rd, and Eber in the 2187th: which was 4 years after Abraham's death. And Eber was the fourth from Noah.

Thus, according to the chronology, Abraham died 2,183 years after the world began through Adam. Joseph Smith was deeply interested in biblical chronology and how to date the time of the ancient Patriarchs. Consider this from an official Church publication in which Smith endorsed:

THE EVENING AND THE MORNING STAR Independence, Mo. August, 1832 wrote:
PRESENT AGE OF THE WORLD.

There are so many different opinions upon, as well as various periods to the age of the world, that we fear the truth of the matter will be believed by few. Whether by the commentators upon the sacred writings, or by the clergy, the term of four thousand and four years, was put down as the exact time from the beginning till the birth of the Savior, we shall not pretend to say, but content ourselves by stating, that 4004 years, which is the present Christian calculation, added to the current year of our Lord, makes but 5836 years since the commencement of time in this world. But upon collecting the passed periods that the Lord has been pleased to measure out to his servants, by the prophets, we find a very different amount of years from the beginning. We compute thus:

Chapters. Years.

Gen. 5 & 8 From Adam to the end of the flood, ... 1656

" 11. From the flood to Abram, .............. 292

" 21. From Abram to Isaac, .................. 100

" 25. From Isaac to Jacob, ................... 60

" 47. From Jacob's birth to his entering Egypt, 130

Ex. 12. The children of Israel in Egypt, ..... 430

From their departure out of Egypt till the birth of the Savior.

----------------------------------------------------------------- 1491

Years before Christ, ................. 4159

Since his birth, ..................... 1832

From the beginning till now, ......... 5991

Deduct, .............................. 5836

Difference, .......................... 155

Now, when Joseph Smith made his general statement that the papyrus and mummies were some 3,500 years old, we need to consider the year in which he made that statement.

Thus, 1843 AD - 3,500 years = 1657 BC which is the time of the Patriarchs, in particular Joseph of Egypt.

We know that Joseph Smith often used the Adam Clarke Commentary in the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible. This has been firmly established as a fact and the evidence to that is incontrovertible. Smith spent a lot of time revising the Book of Geneses and moreover chapter 50. Now let us look in the Adam Clarke Commentary and see what dating is available in a table he presents that pertains to the Patriarchs in question, especially JOSEPH of Egypt:

Please note that the first date represents A.M. and the second is B.C., whereby Clarke states, “The first year of the world, answering to the 710th year of the Julian period, and supposed to be 4004 before the vulgar era of the birth of Christ.”

Adam Clarke Commentary Geneses 50
Adam Clarke wrote:2259 Joseph is born, Genesis 30:23-24. 1745
Adam Clarke wrote:2276 Joseph, aged seventeen years, falling under the displeasure of his brothers, they conspire to take away his life, but afterwards change their minds, and sell him for a slave to some Ishmaelite merchants, who bring him to Egypt and sell him to Potiphar, Genesis 37:0 1728
Adam Clarke wrote:2285 Joseph, through the false accusation of his mistress, is cast into prison, where, about two years after, he interprets the dreams of the chief butler and the chief baker, Genesis 39:0, Genesis 40:0. 1719
Adam Clarke wrote:2289 Joseph interprets the two-prophetic dreams of Pharaoh, Genesis 41:0. 1715
Adam Clarke wrote:2300 Joseph sells corn to the Egyptians, and brings all the money in Egypt into the king's treasury, Genesis 47:14. 1704
Adam Clarke wrote:2315 Jacob, having blessed his sons and the sons of Joseph, Ephraim and Manasseh, dies, aged 147 years. He is embalmed and carried into Canaan, and buried in the cave of Machpelah, Genesis 49:1. 1689
Adam Clarke wrote:2369 Joseph dies, aged 110, having governed Egypt fourscore years. 1635

The point of this entire exercise demonstrates HOW Joseph Smith may have been influenced in dating the papyrus and the mummies and we clearly see that this dating *IS* dated to the very lifetime of JOSEPH who possessed his great grandfather’s book entitled “The Book of Abraham” as well as his own book that he wrote called “The Book of Joseph” which Joseph Smith promised to someday translate when he had the time.

Now to tie it all together we only need confirm that Joseph Smith provided this particular information (3,500 years) as part of his prophetic calling and did so through the mantle of being President of the Holy Melchizedek Priesthood and sealing it up in the name of Jesus Christ. Clearly, this has been established in this thread by the reference cited in the Times and Seasons. So with that taken, let it be understood that the Lord revealed to Joseph Smith that the Books of Abraham & Joseph in his possession were physically as old as the Patriarchs themselves, original autographs written by their own hands.

You will note that the commentary provides a date of 1635 BC for the death of Joseph of Egypt and the 3,500 year reference to the age of the records and mummies is placed at 1657 BC which implies that the records were entombed with pious Egyptians shortly before Joseph passed away or, thereabouts
Shulem wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:20 pm
How much more clear need Joseph Smith be? He stated that the mummies had been entombed for 3,500 years and that the records were preserved on their very persons being sealed up and kept from the world for all that time. Other testimonials were also given that Smith reported the antiquities truly were biblical in nature and the age on order of some 4,000 years. Those testimonials come from those who wrote down what Smith said. But the statement I cited earlier given by Smith himself in the Times and Seasons should be all you need to know that the very records in question were ancient enough to have been written by the very hands of Abraham & Joseph and were in fact their own authentic records or autographs, SCRIPTURE restored by Joseph Smith.
Shulem wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:52 pm

Let us for sheer pleasure quote Joseph Smith; a sermon that you never hear over the pulpit and will lift eyebrows and cause a smile to form on anyone’s face -- both the believer and the unbeliever. Pay special attention to the blue text as it authoritatively dictates the context in which is most interesting.

Verily, the mummies and the papyrus in which Joseph Smith purchased were declared by God in the name of Jesus Christ and by the authority of the holy priesthood to be on the order of 3,500 years old.

You may follow and compare at these links, both the handwritten version and the actual publication in the Times and Seasons:

Joseph Smith, History

TIMES AND SEASONS, November 1, 1843

Joseph Smith wrote:
DEAR SIR:-Your letter of the 24th ult. has been regularly received; its contents duly appreciated, and its whole tenor candidly considered; and, according to my manner of judging all things in righteousness, I proceed to answer you: and shall leave you to meditate whether the mathematical problems, founded upon the truth of revelation, or religion as promulgated by me, or Moses, can be solved by rules and principles existing in the systems of common knowledge.

How far you are capable of being ‘a most undeviating friend, without being governed by the smallest religious influence,’ will best be decided by your survivors, as all past experience most assuredly proves. Without controversy, that friendship, which intelligent beings would accept as sincere, must arise from love, and that love grow out of virtue, which is as much a part of religion, as light is a part of Jehovah. Hence the saying of Jesus: ‘Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for a friend.’

You observed, ‘as I have proven myself to be a philosophical divine, I must excuse you, when you say that we must leave these influences to the mass.’ The meaning of ‘philosophical divines,’ may be taken in various ways, If, as the learned world apply the term, you infer that I have achieved a victory, and been strengthened by a scientific religion, as practiced by the popular sects of the age, through the aid of colleges, seminaries, Bible societies, missionary boards, financial organizations, and gospel money schemes, then you are wrong; Such a combination of men and means, shows a form of godliness without the power; for is it not written, ‘I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the rudiments of the world and not after the doctrines of Christ.’ But if the inference is, that by more love, more light, more virtue, and more truth from the Lord, I have succeeded as a man of God, then you reason truly; though the weight of the sentiment is lost when the ‘influence is left to the mass,’ Do men gather grapes of thorns or figs of thistles?

Of course you follow out the figure, and say, ‘the boldness of my plans and measures, together with their unparalleled success, so far, are calculated to throw a charm over my whole being; and to point me out as the most extraordinary man of the present age.’ The boldness of my plans and measures, can readily be tested by the touch stone of all schemes, systems, projects, and adventures,-truth, for truth is a matter of fact; and the fact is, that by the power of God I translated the Book of Mormon from hieroglyphics; the knowledge of which was lost to the world: in which wonderful event I stood alone, an unlearned youth, to combat the worldly wisdom, and multiplied ignorance of eighteen centuries, with a new revelation; which, (if they would receive the everlasting gospel,) would open the eyes of more than eight hundred millions of people, and make ‘plain the old paths,’ wherein if a man walk in all the ordinances of God blameless, he shall inherit eternal life; and Jesus Christ, who was, and is, and is to come, has borne me safely over every snare and plan, laid in secret or openly; through priestly hypocrisy, sectarian prejudice, popular philosophy, executive power, or law defying mobocracy, to destroy me.

If, then, the hand of God, in all these things that I have accomplished, towards salvation of a priest-ridden generation, in the short space of twelve years, through the boldness of the plan of preaching the gospel, and the boldness of the means of declaring repentance and baptism for the remission of sins; and a reception of the Holy Ghost, by laying on of the hands, agreeably to the authority of the priesthood; and the still more bold measures of receiving direct revelation from God, through the Comforter, as promised, and by which means all holy men, from ancient times till now, have spoken and revealed the will of God to men, with the consequent ‘success’ of the gathering of the saints, throws any ‘charm’ around my being and ‘points me out as the most extraordinary man of the age,’ it demonstrates the fact, that truth is mighty and must prevail; and that one man empowered from Jehovah, has more influence with the children of the kingdom, than eight hundred millions led by the precepts of men. God exalts the humble, and debases the haughty. But let me assure you in the name of Jesus, who spake as never man spake, that the ‘boldness of the plans and measures,’ as you term them, but which should be denominated the righteousness of the cause, the truth of the system, and power of God, which ‘so far,’ has borne me and the church, (in which I glory in having the privilege of being a member,) successfully through the storm of reproach, folly, ignorance, malice , persecution, falsehood, sacerdotal wrath, newspaper satire, pamphlet libels and the combined influences of the powers of earth and hell, I say these powers of righteousness and truth, are not the decrees or rules of an ambitious and aspiring Nimrod, Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar, Alexander, Mahomet, Buonaparte, [Bonaparte] or other great sounding heroes, that dazzled forth with a trail of pomp and circumstances for a little season, like a comet, and, then disappeared, leaving a wide waste where such an existence once was, with only a name, nor were the glorious results of what you term ‘boldness of plans and measures,’ with the attendant ‘success,’ matured by the self aggrandizing wisdom of the priests of Baal; the scribes and Pharisees of the Jews; Popes and Bishops of christendom; or pagans of Juggernaut; nor were they extended by the divisions and sub-divisions of a Luther, a Calvin, a Wesley, or even a Campbell; supported by a galaxy of clergymen and churchmen, of whatever name or nature, bound apart by cast iron creeds, and fastened to set stakes by chain cable opinions, without revelation; nor are they the lions of the land or the Leviathans of the sea, moving among the elements, as distant chimeras to fatten the fancy of the infidel; but they are as the stone cut out of the mountain without hands, and will become a great mountain and fill the whole earth. Were I an Egyptian, I would exclaim Jah-oh-eh, Enish-go-on-dosh, Flo-ees-Flos-is-is; [O earth! the power of attraction, and the moon passing between her and the sun.] A Hebrew; Haueloheem yerau; a Greek, O theos phos esi; a Roman, Dominus regit me; a German, Gott gebe uns das licht; a Portugee, Senhor Jesu Christo e libordade; a Frenchman, Dieu defend law enforcement droit: but as I am, I give God the glory, and say in the beautiful figure of the poet;

‘Could we with ink the ocean fill;

Was the whole earth of parchment made;

And ev’ry single stick a quill;

And every man a scribe by trade

To write the love, of God above,

Would drain the ocean dry;

Nor could the whole upon a scroll,

Be spread from sky to sky.’

It seems that your mind is of such ‘a mathematical and philosophical cast, that the divinity of Moses makes not impression upon you, and that I will not be offended when you say, that you rate me higher as a legislator, than you de [do] Moses, because you have me present with you for examination;’ that ‘Moses derives his chief authority from prescription and the lapse of time; you cannot however say, but we are both right, it being out of the power of man to prove us wrong. It is no mathematical problem, and can therefore get no mathematical solution.’

Now, Sir, to cut the matter short, and not dally with your learned ideas, for, fashion’s sake you have here given your opinion, without reserve, that revelation, the knowledge of God, prophetic vision, the truth of eternity cannot be solved as a mathematical problem. The first question then is, what is a mathematical problem? and the natural answer is, a statement, proposition or question that can be solved, ascertained, unfolded or demonstrated, by knowledge, facts of figures, for ‘mathematical’ is an adjective derived from Mathesis (gr.) meaning in English, learning or knowledge. ‘Problem’ is derived from probleme, (French,) or problema, (Latin, Italian or Spanish) and in each language means a question or proposition, whether true or false. ‘Solve’ is derived from the Latin verb, solvo, to explain or answer. One thing more in order to prove the work as we proceed; it is necessary to have witnesses, two or three of whose testimonies, according to the laws or rules of God and man, are sufficient to establish any one point.

Now for the question. How much are one and one? Two. How much is one from two? One. Very well, one question, or problem is solved by figures. Now let me ask one for facts: was there ever such a place on the earth as Egypt? Geography says yes; ancient history says yes; and the Bible says yes. So three witnesses have solved that question. Again, lived there ever such a man as Moses in Egypt? The same witnesses reply certainly. And was he a prophet? The same witnesses, or a part, have left on record, that Moses predicted in Leviticus that if Israel broke the covenant they had made, the Lord would scatter them among the nations, till the land enjoyed her Sabbaths; and subsequently these witnesses have testified of their captivity in Babylon, and other places, in fulfilment. But to make assurance doubly sure, Moses prays that the ground might open and swallow up Korah and his company for transgression, and it was so: and he endorses the prophesy of Balaam, which said, out of Jacob shall come, he that shall have dominion, and shall destroy him that remaineth of the city; and Jesus Christ, as him that ‘had dominion,’ about fifteen hundred years after, in accordance with this and the prediction of Moses, David, Isaiah, and many others, came, saying; Moses wrote of me, declaring the dispersion of the Jews, and the utter destruction of the ‘city;’ and the apostles were his witnesses, unimpeached, especially Jude, who not only endorses the facts of Moses ‘divinity,’ but also the events of Balaam, and Korah and many others, as true. Besides these tangible facts, so easily proven and demonstrated by simple rules of testimony unimpeached, the art (now lost) of embalming human bodies, and preserving them in the catacombs of Egypt, whereby men, women and children as mummies, after a lapse of near three thousand five hundred years, come forth among the living, and although dead, the papyrus which has lived in their bosoms, unharmed, speaks for them, in language like the sound of an earthquake: Ecce veritas! Ecce cadaveros. Behold the truth! Behold the mummies! Oh my dear Sir, the sunken Tyre and Sidon, the melancholy dust where ‘the city’ of Jerusalem once was, and the mourning of the Jews among the nations, together with such a ‘cloud of witnesses,’ if you had been as well acquainted with your God and Bible, as with your purse and pence table, the ‘divinity’ of Moses would have dispelled the fog of five thousand years, and filled you with light; for facts, like diamonds, not only cut glass, but they are the most precious jewels on earth. The spirit of prophesy is the testimony of Jesus.

The world at large, is ever ready to credit the writings of Homer, Hesid, Plutarch, Socrates, Pythagoras, Virgil, Josephus, Mahomet, and an hundred others, but where, tell me where, have they left a line, a simple method of solving the truth of the plan of eternal life? Says the Savior, ‘if any man will do his (the Father’s) will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.’ Here then is a method of solving the ‘divinity’ of men by the divinity within yourself, that as far exceeds the calculation of numbers, as the sun exceeds a candle. Would to God that all men understood it, and were willing to be governed by it, that when one had filled the measure of his days, he could exclaim like Jesus; ‘veni mori, et reviviscere!’

Your good wishes to ‘go ahead’ coupled with Mahomet and a ‘right hand man’ are rather more vain than virtuous. Why, Sir, Caesar had his right hand Brutus, who was his ‘left hand’ assassin, not however applying the allusion to you.

As to the private seal you mention, if sent to me, I shall receive it with the gratitude of a servant of God, and pray that the donor may receive a reward in the resurrection of the just.

The summit of your future fame seems to be hid in the political policy of a ‘mathematical problem’ for the chief magistracy of this state, which, I suppose might be solved by ‘double proposition,’ where the errors of the supposition are used to produce a true answer.

But, Sir, when I leave the dignity and honor I received from heaven, to boost a man into power, through the aid of my friends, where the evil and designing, after the object has been accomplished, can lock up the clemency intended as a reciprocation for such favors; and where the wicked and unprincipled, as a matter of course, would seize the opportunity, to flintify the hearts of the nation against me for dabbling at a sly game in politics; verily, I say when I leave the dignity and honor of heaven, to gratify the ambition and vanity of man or men, may my power cease, like the strength of Samson, when he was shorn of his locks, while asleep in the lap of Delilah. Truly said the Savior, cast not your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet and turn again and rend you.

Shall I who have witnessed the visions of Eternity; and beheld the glories of the mansions of bliss; and the regions and the misery of the damned; shall I turn to be a Judas? Shall I who have heard the voice of God, and communed with angels; and spake as moved by the Holy Ghost for the renewal of the everlasting covenant, and for the gathering of Israel in the last days; shall I worm myself into a political hypocrite? Shall I, who hold the keys of the last kingdom; in which is the dispensation of the fulness [fullness] of all things spoken by the mouths of all the holy prophets, since the world began; under the sealing power of the Melchesedek priesthood; shall I stoop from the sublime authority of Almighty God, to be handled as a Monkey’s cat’s paw; and pettify myself into a clown to act the farce of political demagoguery? No, verily no! The whole earth shall bear me witness that I, like the towering rock in the midst of the ocean, which has withstood the mighty surges of the warring waves, for centuries, am impregnable, and am a faithful friend of virtue, and a fearless foe to vice; no odds, whether the former was sold as a pearl in Asia, or hid as a gem in America; and the latter dazzles in palaces, or glimmers among the tombs.

I combat the errors of the ages; I meet the violence of mobs; I cope with illegal proceedings from executive authority; I cut the Gordian knot of powers; and I solve mathematical problems of Universities: WITH TRUTH, diamond truth, and God is my ‘right hand man.’

And to close, let me say in the name of Jesus Christ to you, and to Presidents, Emperors, Kings, Queens, Governors, rulers, nobles, and men in authority every where, do the works of righteousness, execute justice and judgment in the earth that God may bless you, and her inhabitants; and

The laurel that grows on top of the mountain,

Shall green for your fame while the sun sheds a ray,

And the lily that blows by the side of the fountain,

Will bloom for your virtue till earth melts away.

With due consideration

and respect, I have the
honor to be your

most obt. servt.,

JOSEPH SMITH.

Shulem wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:22 pm
I would like to point out that there is a special problem you’ll need to work out in your own mind since you’ve chosen to embrace the Midrash Theory. It won’t be easy. Over on the King’s Name thread, I’ve quoted the entire Joseph Smith Sermon which attests that Smith declared by revelation and divine authority that the interment of the mummies and papyrus was on the order of some 3,500 years from when Smith acquired the records. I’ve also touched on this particular in my website Part II and provided multiple references to that cause. And that list is not all inclusive.

What I’m trying to get across to you, MG, is that Smith by authority of God declared the papyrus were original autographs placed on the bodies (mummies) that were left intact in their tombs for some 3,500 years! And if those papyri were left intact for 3,500 years then they could not have been Late Egyptian records or some kind of redaction from the Jews as some apologists like to imagine and if Smith was telling the truth about what God told him then the only conclusion we may infer is that the real Books of Abraham & Joseph actually fell into Smith’s hands exactly as he testified.

But, what I’m really getting at is the idea of deriving midrash from papyrus that is said to actually *BE* the books of Abraham & Joseph. You see, since God said those records were as old as Abraham and Joseph and were buried untouched after being entombed for 3,500 years, why not just actually translate the records for what they really are rather than fantasize midrash in order to conjure the original stories. Thus, *IF* the records really were the original autographs and on the order of being buried for 3,500 years then the only thing that would truly suffice is an actual translation, on the same order as translating the gold plates into the Book of Mormon.

I’m afraid the Midrash Theory clashes with Smith’s dating of the mummies and “the papyrus which has lived in their bosoms, unharmed”, therefore, they remained untouched for all the time they were hid up in the tombs.
Shulem wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:55 pm
Those who are following this thread may find the link below very enlightening. It highlights Smith’s belief that the Book of Abraham (including the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3) is “Mormonism in its true light”.

“Mormonism IN ITS TRUE LIGHT”


Now, with that said, what happens when something is enlightening? You understand it! The mystery begins to evaporate and the mind perceives things exactly how they really are. You and I have to have light in order to read the text on the page of a book. Joseph Smith had to have divine light to decipher the hieroglyphic text on Abraham’s roll. Smith told the Church that the roll was the very handiwork of Abraham although it was noted that his penmanship was not as good as the other roll written by Joseph. Nonetheless, Abraham was said to have drawn the representation of the altar at the beginning of the record and mentions that in Abraham 1:12. The same hand that penned the Book of Abraham upon papyrus also drew the altar. That same hand drew the vignette for Facsimile No. 3, to include King Pharaoh. The mummies were dated by Joseph Smith to have been on the order of 3,500 years old and the papyri were the very handiworks of Abraham & Joseph who lived prior to the interment. From that point the mummies and the papyri had not seen the light of day for 3,500 years.
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Re: Backyard Professor Live Discussion on the Kevin Barney Semitic Adaptation Theory of the Book of Abraham

Post by Philo Sofee »

Damn Shulem you are OVER the TOP SPECTACULAR!!! This is right in line with my next week's live session, may I use it with, of delightful course, giving you the credit for the research? I mean you are a wonder at work! Fantastically GOOD job done thou good and faithful King (whose name shall remain sacred and secret :D ).
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Re: Backyard Professor Live Discussion on the Kevin Barney Semitic Adaptation Theory of the Book of Abraham

Post by Philo Sofee »

dastardly stem wrote:
Mon Mar 07, 2022 2:22 pm
Yes. Apologists of all types tend to think if they can imagine a theory it somehow explains something. "well we still have an out because we imagine this happening..."

No, possibility doesn't become probability simply because someone said it. Truth is they don't want to consider what's probable, because in each case, they lose. And that's a tough spot we ought to appreciate.

If God inspired the Book of Abraham why has it always been so ignored except for one passage? All this ink, as it were, devoted to defending this scripture that no one really cares about.
Indeed! Most excellent observations!
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Re: Backyard Professor Live Discussion on the Kevin Barney Semitic Adaptation Theory of the Book of Abraham

Post by Jersey Girl »

You are still covering Book of Abraham theories? I think I still have copies of your first ever videos. VHS tapes as I recall! 8-) Good on ya for pursuing your interests!
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF

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Re: Backyard Professor Live Discussion on the Kevin Barney Semitic Adaptation Theory of the Book of Abraham

Post by Fence Sitter »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Mon Mar 07, 2022 7:20 pm
dastardly stem wrote:
Mon Mar 07, 2022 2:22 pm
Yes. Apologists of all types tend to think if they can imagine a theory it somehow explains something. "well we still have an out because we imagine this happening..."

No, possibility doesn't become probability simply because someone said it. Truth is they don't want to consider what's probable, because in each case, they lose. And that's a tough spot we ought to appreciate.

If God inspired the Book of Abraham why has it always been so ignored except for one passage? All this ink, as it were, devoted to defending this scripture that no one really cares about.
Indeed! Most excellent observations!
Possibility = apologetics
Probability = scholarship
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Re: Backyard Professor Live Discussion on the Kevin Barney Semitic Adaptation Theory of the Book of Abraham

Post by Philo Sofee »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Mon Mar 07, 2022 8:19 pm
You are still covering Book of Abraham theories? I think I still have copies of your first ever videos. VHS tapes as I recall! 8-) Good on ya for pursuing your interests!
I'm also making music now. Go check out the links in the Spirit Paradise also. Yes, I am now using the evidence instead of the former apologetic arguments, and finding out just how wrong I was, so I am now correcting the record.
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Re: Backyard Professor Live Discussion on the Kevin Barney Semitic Adaptation Theory of the Book of Abraham

Post by Moksha »

Shulem, what if the apologists were to say that you should forget about Joseph Smith since the truth has now been revealed to them?
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