Shulem, what if the apologists were to say that you should forget about Joseph Smith since the truth has now been revealed to them?
That is in effect what the apologist have already said. They deny Joseph Smith's own words and trample on him and the second elder of the Church, Oliver Cowdery. The apologists are modern day apostates and hypocrites. Joseph Smith would just as well excommunicate all of them if they were to go back in his day and confront him with their heretical ideas.
Beginning with Kevin Barney:
Joseph Smith would excommunicate him for apostasy and for directly opposing the Lord's work.
I will be sharing the ingenious theory of Kevin Barney, The Semitic Adaptation of the Facsimiles and the Book of Abraham concerning the J-Red redactor. Many Mormons apparently feel it is the go to theory in order to demonstrate the Book of Abraham and Joseph Smith are still in the ball game. It will be instructive as well as entertaining for one and all. I am going all out with the evidence in order to assess properly whether it is a valid theory or not. I look forward to see any and all of you there ... Tonight (Sunday), 6 p.m. Mountain, 7 p.m. (Texas), 5 p.m. Pacific, 8 p.m. Eastern time in the United States.
(1) Insist that the only way to view the truth of the Book of Abraham is Joseph Smith's literalism for what he thought he understood.
(2) Insist that we as fellow LDS with Joseph Smith with our own light by our own intellect and our own access to the Gift of the Holy Ghost are constrained by Joseph Smith's literalism, and cannot seek the truth of things through our own light.
(3) Insist that we as LDS cannot merely be informed by Joseph Smith, and informed by science at the same time, and come to a marriage between the two datasets, where the literalism of Joseph Smith cannot be explained by something less literal.
That's a straw man, and we don't have to be constrained by it, to come to a knowledge of the likely truth for the ancient context of why Joseph Smith saw someone else's symbological usage (someone else from the ancient world) of these glyphs that in Joseph Smith's 19th century mind were literalized. We are more sophisticated in our day, with access to a science that Joseph Smith didn't have access to. He understood it as he could, with the background and light he had. We have, frankly, more light than he did on this subject. Period. And we are informed by him only, not constrained by his conclusions.
Philo,
What are ya gonna do now? It looks like Ed1 has beaten you?
Book of Abraham apologetics are DOA.
There is no way to redeem it. No matter how you spin it the 100ce funerary doc will never have encoded in it a 3500bce Abraham account. Trying to suss out hidden meaning from the papyrus is a fools errand.
Book of Abraham apologetics are DOA.
There is no way to redeem it. No matter how you spin it the 100ce funerary doc will never have encoded in it a 3500bce Abraham account. Trying to suss out hidden meaning from the papyrus is a fools errand.
I continue to be that fool. I know that I will save the faith of some, by continuing to be that fool, as you see it. History will determine just how foolish it was.
You may save the faith of some, perhaps, but in doing so you RUN OVER the prophet Joseph Smith with a bus and trample all over his words which he considered canon. You are worse than the apostates because you're a wolf in the fold!
I will be sharing the ingenious theory of Kevin Barney, The Semitic Adaptation of the Facsimiles and the Book of Abraham concerning the J-Red redactor. Many Mormons apparently feel it is the go to theory in order to demonstrate the Book of Abraham and Joseph Smith are still in the ball game. It will be instructive as well as entertaining for one and all. I am going all out with the evidence in order to assess properly whether it is a valid theory or not. I look forward to see any and all of you there ... Tonight (Sunday), 6 p.m. Mountain, 7 p.m. (Texas), 5 p.m. Pacific, 8 p.m. Eastern time in the United States.
(1) Insist that the only way to view the truth of the Book of Abraham is Joseph Smith's literalism for what he thought he understood, and since that is obviously not true, then Joseph Smith couldn't have been basically on the right track.
(2) Insist that we as fellow LDS with Joseph Smith with our own light by our own intellect and our own access to the Gift of the Holy Ghost are constrained by Joseph Smith's literalism, and cannot seek the truth of things through our own light.
(3) Insist that we as LDS cannot merely be informed by Joseph Smith, and informed by science at the same time, and come to a marriage between the two datasets, where the literalism of Joseph Smith cannot be explained by something less literal.
That's a straw man, and we don't have to be constrained by it, to come to a knowledge of the likely truth for the ancient context of why Joseph Smith saw someone else's symbological usage (someone else from the ancient world) of these glyphs that in Joseph Smith's 19th century mind were literalized. We are more sophisticated in our day, with access to a science that Joseph Smith didn't have access to. He understood it as he could, with the background and light he had. We have, frankly, more light than he did on this subject. Period. And we are informed by him only, not constrained by his conclusions.
Interesting thoughts here Ed1... if only Smith and his followers had not so adamantly insisted it was through God himself that they acquired the knowledge of the papyri... that is, after all the rub...
Interesting thoughts here Ed1... if only Smith and his followers had not so adamantly insisted it was through God himself that they acquired the knowledge of the papyri... that is, after all the rub...
Philo,
The bulk of the thread has been rightfully tossed down into the Telestial Forum.
Ed1 is entirely your problem now. He's on my ignore list and I will never converse with him ever again. So, you'll have to deal with him on your own account. He is YOUR problem.
Interesting thoughts here Ed1... if only Smith and his followers had not so adamantly insisted it was through God himself that they acquired the knowledge of the papyri... that is, after all the rub...
Philo,
The bulk of the thread has been rightfully tossed down into the Telestial Forum.
Ed1 is entirely your problem now. He's on my ignore list and I will never converse with him ever again. So, you'll have to deal with him on your own account. He is YOUR problem.
Ta, mate.
I haven't ever viewed Ed1 as a problem. I'm just enjoying conversation at the moment.
