John Gee & "Interpreter" Deliver Yet Another Book of Abraham Embarrassment

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Shulem
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Re: John Gee & "Interpreter" Deliver Yet Another Book of Abraham Embarrassment

Post by Shulem »

Abraham 2:7 wrote:For I am the Lord thy God; I dwell in heaven; the earth is my footstool; I stretch my hand over the sea, and it obeys my voice; I cause the wind and the fire to be my chariot; I say to the mountains—Depart hence—and behold, they are taken away by a whirlwind, in an instant, suddenly.

QUESTION FOR JOHN GEE:

Assuming Joseph Smith envisioned Jehovah's chariot to be like Elijah's horse-drawn chariot, would that be an anachronism for Abraham's time?

We can reason how the earth being God's footstool is a figurative expression. Stretching his hand over the sea is also figurative. Can we not also reason that the idea of wind and fire being the chariot is figurative and not literal? A chariot is not made of wind and fire. So, the application of air and fire is symbolic or figurative typical to scripture in general. But just because the Abrahamic account does not mention horses pulling a chariot that rides within the heavens doesn't mean that horses were not implied. I think Joseph Smith envisioned a glorious horse-drawn chariot bathed in a fiery light. There most certainly had to be horses pulling Jehovah's chariot! I can't imagine a horseless chariot. That's just stupid.
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Re: John Gee & "Interpreter" Deliver Yet Another Book of Abraham Embarrassment

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Ps 68:17 wrote:The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.

Here we are informed that God has 20,000 chariots and thousands of angels at his disposal. But nothing is said about horses pulling those chariots. Does that mean there are 20,000 horseless chariots in heaven? :?

Of course not! Who ever heard of a horseless chariot other than John Gee?

:lol:
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Re: John Gee & "Interpreter" Deliver Yet Another Book of Abraham Embarrassment

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Abraham 2:7 wrote:For I am the Lord thy God; I dwell in heaven; the earth is my footstool; I stretch my hand over the sea, and it obeys my voice; I cause the wind and the fire to be my chariot; I say to the mountains—Depart hence—and behold, they are taken away by a whirlwind, in an instant, suddenly.

Vs.

Ps 104:1-7 wrote:Bless the Lord, O my soul. O Lord my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.

Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:

Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.

At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away.

QUESTION FOR JOHN GEE:

Is God's chariot horseless? Just because horses aren't mentioned doesn't mean there aren't horses! It's clear to me that Smith was simply plagiarizing biblical things and incorporating them into his Book of Abraham -- horses, chariots, and all.
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Re: John Gee & "Interpreter" Deliver Yet Another Book of Abraham Embarrassment

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John Gee wrote:While the wind and the fire being the chariot of God might at first seem out of place in the Book of Abraham, these concepts are attested both archaeologically and textually in times and locations relevant to Abraham.

John,

Just as Joseph Smith neglected to mention horses in the Abrahamic chariot account, he also neglected to mention horses in the Elijah chariot account as recorded in his journal. Does that mean there were no horses pulling Elijah's chariot as we read in the Bible?

Joseph Smith Journal, June 1842 wrote:Elijah was taken in a chariot of fire, it was unobserved by the world
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Re: John Gee & "Interpreter" Deliver Yet Another Book of Abraham Embarrassment

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Here we have another case in a vision of Joseph Smith when he neglects to mention horses pulling a heavenly chariot. Does that mean the chariot was horseless? Of course not!

Joseph Smith, March 1838 wrote:I saw in a vision while on the road, that whereas he was closely pursued by an innumerable concourse of enemies, and as they pressed upon him hard. as if they were about to devour him, and had seemingly obtained some degree of advantage over him; but about this time a chariot of fire came, and near the place, and the angel of the Lord put forth his hand unto Bro Marks, and said unto him, “Thou art my son come here,” and immediately he was caught up in the chariot and rode away triumphantly out of their midst. And again the Lord said I will raise thee up for a blessing unto many people. Now the particulars of this whole matter cannot be written at this time, but the vision was evidently given to me that I might know that the hand of the Lord would be on his behalf.

"RODE AWAY", sounds like horses pulling a chariot!
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Re: John Gee & "Interpreter" Deliver Yet Another Book of Abraham Embarrassment

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Shulem wrote:
Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:42 pm
John,

Just as Joseph Smith neglected to mention horses in the Abrahamic chariot account, he also neglected to mention horses in the Elijah chariot account as recorded in his journal. Does that mean there were no horses pulling Elijah's chariot as we read in the Bible?

Joseph Smith Journal, June 1842 wrote:Elijah was taken in a chariot of fire, it was unobserved by the world

Never fear, Joseph Smith affirmed his belief many years prior in a letter stating that Elijah's chariot was horse-drawn. I would bet anything Smith would say the same of Jehovah's chariot in the Book of Abraham.

Joseph Smith, Sept 1833 wrote:I may believe that Elijah was taken to Heaven in a chariot of fire with fiery horses.
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Re: John Gee & "Interpreter" Deliver Yet Another Book of Abraham Embarrassment

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John Gee submission to the Smithsonian Institute:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb4VyIJ4-mY
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Re: John Gee & "Interpreter" Deliver Yet Another Book of Abraham Embarrassment

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Moksha wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 11:42 am
John Gee submission to the Smithsonian Institute:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb4VyIJ4-mY

Primitive man has a long way to go. Horse-drawn chariots in the Book of Abraham, bah! Man's god cannot ride such a chariot.

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Marcus
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Re: John Gee & "Interpreter" Deliver Yet Another Book of Abraham Embarrassment

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Moksha wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 11:42 am
John Gee submission to the Smithsonian Institute:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb4VyIJ4-mY
Omg! That was hysterical. Please, please please, let some podcaster read a similar “letter” from the Smithsonian about the Mormon version of the papyrus meanings, or some of the mopologetic loan-shifting word meanings.
we are particularly interested in
hearing you expand on your theories
surrounding the
transpositating filification of ferrous
ions in a structural matrix that make
the excellent juvenile tyrannosaurus rex
femur you recently discovered
take on the deceptive appearance of a
rusty nine millimeter sears craftsman
automotive crescent wrench…..
Horses to tapirs, you have met your soul-mate!!!!
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Re: John Gee & "Interpreter" Deliver Yet Another Book of Abraham Embarrassment

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Marcus wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:54 pm
Horses to tapirs, you have met your soul-mate!!!!

I've read Gee's paper and it seems to me that the main crux he is trying get around is that Abraham's chariot in which God is riding is not to be viewed in the same manner as the fast and agile Egyptian chariot having spoked wheels and light design that is able to be pulled swiftly by a team of horses.

Is that what Gee is avoiding by paying reference to the heavy and clumsy chariots (wagons) of much earlier times?
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