“Wither she did go” ??

[Shulem]

But we have only the "translation" into English to go on when determining how these hypothetical people referred to anything. And we will never (hah!) have another translation from the plates. How could we ever effectively question a putative "feminine connotation" in a non-existent source language with no hope of another translation?

Well, when referencing a ship, it seems there are a few choices available:

• She

• He

• It

Understanding how the Jews actually referred to ships will help put things in better perspective when comparing that to Smith's novel.

[Moksha]

Joseph Smith, showed his gift for translation when Lehi said, "Avast. Thar be land ahoy me hearties!"

Herman Melville had not yet written Moby Dick at this time.

ByTW, does anyone know how Captain Kidd referred to his ship? Was the chest of gold doubloons and pieces of eight also referred to as she?

[Shulem]

ByTW, does anyone know how Captain Kidd referred to his ship? Was the chest of gold doubloons and pieces of eight also referred to as she?

I imagine Captain Kidd christened his ship with lots of gold and lovely ladies paid for by that gold.

But hey, look at this:

The Iliad, by Homer indicates that female ship gender was given in ancient times, at least for the Greeks in 800 BC.

But of this we will take thought hereafter; for the present, let us draw a ship into the sea, and find a crew for her expressly;

vs.

He thus drove them from the ship and quenched the fire that was then blazing- leaving the half-burnt ship to lie where it was.

The moral of the story is that a burnt lady is not so lovely.

[malkie]

But we have only the "translation" into English to go on when determining how these hypothetical people referred to anything. And we will never (hah!) have another translation from the plates. How could we ever effectively question a putative "feminine connotation" in a non-existent source language with no hope of another translation?

Well, when referencing a ship, it seems there are a few choices available:

• She

• He

• It

Understanding how the Jews actually referred to ships will help put things in better perspective when comparing that to Smith's novel.

Drat!

I hate how quickly I give up my intentions to let it go.

In case my point was not clear, many of us are biased by being really familiar with only one language - English. English has 3 ordinary genders: masculine, feminine, and neuter.

But there are other languages with more or fewer genders, only some of which are related to the masculinity, femininity, or inanimacy of the nouns assigned to them. Someone who is better versed in linguistics, and in practical pursuits like actual translation between languages can talk more convincingly than I, a complete amateur and almost completely ignorant of the subject matter.

French and Spanish, for example, currently each have two genders, corresponding, but only roughly, to the English masculine and feminine.

Of course, translation amongst French, Spanish, English, and German (Also with 3 genders like English) is well established, and comprehensive dictionaries are available to resolve any little doubts that may arise.

But imagine the first time someone had to translate from English to French, and is faced with the fact that every neuter word in English has been assigned to masculine or feminine in French - it probably seemed quite illogical to not be able to distinguish inanimate objects as neuter. When told that "boat" in English is "bateau" in French, the translator has, initially, no idea if it is considered m or f, and has to be told the gender assigned in French. (sorry, I'm using a chromebook and am not familiar with how to easily type accented characters.)

I know some nouns in Spanish that I have difficulty deciding on whether to use 'el' or 'la' with because I want to use a neuter definite article for the inanimate object, but no such article exists in Spanish. If it's a noun I don't use much, I may forget from one use to the next whether it is m or f, and have to depend on my wife to correct me. Somehow it seems that I guess correctly less than 50% of the time, which I suspect may be the result of some sort of brain pathology.

Two common words in German for "girl" are both neuter gender. This doesn't cause native German speakers any problem at all, and 2nd language German speakers have only to learn a simple rule and a list of endings considered as diminutives to lose any initial difficulty they may have had. But it can still be considered an idiosyncrasy of the language that a feminine person is called by a neuter noun.

This is why I believe that the characteristics of RE, if it existed, would be significant in helping to explain where "she" may have come from in talking about a boat in the Book of Mormon. In translations, the idiosyncrasies of both the source and the target language my cause some strange results. If the Book of Mormon had been "translated" from Hebrew, or from whatever dialect Lehi's family supposedly spoke, then we would be looking at a much simpler issue.

Without a Rosetta Stone that includes a good sample of RE plus some known language(s) I believe we are left with some insoluble issues - perhaps including the origin of the feminine pronoun used in English to refer to the Book of Mormon boat.

Of course, I may also be completely out to sea on this issue.

[Shulem]

Of course, I may also be completely out to sea on this issue.

I don't think you're out to sea at all and you make a lot sense. But, with that said, you should listen to your wife MORE often! I can tell you from past experience, wives are usually right.

[malkie]

Of course, I may also be completely out to sea on this issue.

I don't think you're out to sea at all and you make a lot sense. But, with that said, you should listen to your wife MORE often! I can tell you from past experience, wives are usually right.

I'll be sure to let her know.

A few years ago I asked my wife if she'd like to meet you, if it was OK with you. We had planned to pass through the city where I believed you lived, and I wanted to ask you for coffee/lunch/whatever. As it happened we didn't go that way, but we did have a chance to meet a couple of other people I'd known only online - four in total that I can think of right now. We have had tentative plans to see a few others, as we pass through the US on the way to Mexico, but have struck out, for various reasons, on four or five.

[Shulem]

Let's peek at Josephus and see what we find. In both cases the ship is nongender:

After this calamity had befallen Cestius, many of the most eminent of the Jews swam away from the city, as from a ship when it was going to sink, Costobarus, therefore, and Saul, who were brethren, together with Philip, the son of Jacimus, who was the commander of King Agrippa’s forces, ran away from the city, and went to Cestius.

But when the people saw that the armed men were about to draw their swords, they cried out; at which cry Josephus turned himself about, and when he saw that the swords were just at his throat, he marched away in great haste to the sea shore, and left off that speech which he was going to make to the people, upon an elevation of six cubits high. He then seized on a ship which lay in the haven, and leaped into it, with two of his guards, and fled away into the midst of the lake.

[toon]

But we have only the "translation" into English to go on when determining how these hypothetical people referred to anything. And we will never (hah!) have another translation from the plates. How could we ever effectively question a putative "feminine connotation" in a non-existent source language with no hope of another translation?

Well, when referencing a ship, it seems there are a few choices available:

• She

• He

• It

Understanding how the Jews actually referred to ships will help put things in better perspective when comparing that to Smith's novel.

I think that would help, but I'm not sure it would be determinative.

If I were translating to English from a language that had masculine/feminine nouns and pronouns, I could render a third person singular feminine subject pronoun either "it" or "she." Both would technically be correct, but "it" arguably could be the better translation because that's how you'd say or write it in English. If I were to use "she" instead, it could be that I'm just translating a feminine pronoun into a feminine pronoun unnecessarily. But it could also mean that I'm anthropomorphizing a boat. So there seem to be at least two questions: (1) whether ancient Semitic languages had words for boats that were masculine, feminine, neuter, or a combination (regardless of whether there was some reformed Egyptian script), and (2) whether ancient Semitic peoples/Israelites anthropomorphized boats.

Even if it turns out that all Semitic words for boats, ships, etc., were masculine and that no anthropomorphizing of boats, ships, etc., happened, I'd wage that even the shittiest of apologists could wiggle their way out of this.

But I do think this is interesting.

[toon]

Joseph Smith, showed his gift for translation when Lehi said, "Avast. Thar be land ahoy me hearties!"

Herman Melville had not yet written Moby Dick at this time.

ByTW, does anyone know how Captain Kidd referred to his ship? Was the chest of gold doubloons and pieces of eight also referred to as she?

Thar she blows. Was Moby Dick male or female?

[Shulem]

Even if it turns out that all Semitic words for boats, ships, etc., were masculine and that no anthropomorphizing of boats, ships, etc., happened, I'd wage that even the shittiest of apologists could wiggle their way out of this.

But I do think this is interesting.

I find it interesting too and would love a definitive answer from a true-blue biblical scholar such as Bokovoy. Somebody who knows the ancient literature and customs of the Jews during the era in question. Surely this matter has been addressed in academic circles in which I know little of.

Here is a fresh dig in which sex is not expressively given:

R. Hanan b. Rabha in the name of Rabh said again: On the day when Abraham our father departed from this world, all the great men of the nations stood up in a file and said: Woe to the world, that has lost its leader! and woe to the ship, that has lost its steerer!

In this case the earth and the ship is an "it". We are not given the expression of mother earth or mothership. If ever I thought the feminine would creep into the definition this would be a prime time to do it! But not so.