Shulem challenges RFM’s magical powers

[Shulem]

I believe Smith intended to include the story of Jesus appearing in America before he ever dictated his first sentence to Martin Harris. Smith had already formulated many ideas in his mind about what he wanted to do. He knew he would be using the Bible available to him by using and adding to it and intermingling it with the account had by the Nephites. Newly risen white and delightsome Jesus would appear to the Nephites and cite the New Testament but Smith would change it up a little bit to make it look like it wasn't straight from the King James Version. But here we see Smith's hand caught in the cookie jar so to speak. Freshly risen Jesus cites stuff pretty much exactly as it occurred in the much later version in which Smith's paws were holding. The whole story got a little too big for Smith who was managing and multitasking so many elements that it just got away from him. But with that said, Smith was absolutely brilliant.

[Bret Ripley]

Of course, the so-called Wycliffe Bible predates the KJV.

You make an excellent point. Thank you.

Hmmmm. I was expecting something more like this: "'Wycliffe' was a translation into Middle English from the Latin Vulgate. Get thee gone with thy translation from a bastardized text into a bastardized language!"

[Shulem]

Interesting to note that four of the five trick cards that Smith dealt having the word start are equipped with "to go" and all this is associated with the ups and down of going to and from Zarahemla and the land of Nephi. How interesting. Joseph Smith knew that the trip back and forth from Zarahemla to the land of Nephi involved a journey with turns and twists because one moment you're going one direction only to have to turn a full 180 degrees to go in the opposite direction.

Deal the four trick cards and see:

on the morrow they started to go up

to go up to possess the land, and started again on our journey into the wilderness to go up

they had started to go down

we did start to go down

The above trick cards Smith used in his KJV of the Book of Mormon have ever gone unnoticed by RFM every time he read the Book of Mormon. It went right over RFM's head because he was played! He was fooled. And to show how the cards are properly dealt, I now demonstrate a proper hand:

And I, Nephi, and my brethren took our journey in the wilderness, with our tents, to go up to the land of Jerusalem.

And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did again, with my brethren, go forth into the wilderness to go up to Jerusalem.

And it came to pass that the people began to murmur with the king because of their afflictions; and they began to be desirous to go against them to battle.

And they took their journey into the wilderness to go up to preach the word among the Lamanites; and I shall give an account of their proceedings hereafter.

And it came to pass that we did march forth, as if with our provisions, to go to that city.

And Ammoron refused mine epistle, for he would not exchange prisoners; therefore we began to make preparations to go against the city of Antiparah.

And it came to pass that Nephi and Lehi did proceed from thence to go to the land of Nephi.

And that is the difference between trick cards and real cards.

[Shulem]

Here's the deal.

Smith predetermined beforehand that his Book of Mormon would be married to the Bible using the language and expression of the KJV which at that time he felt best represented the holy Bible. The plan was to implement the language and expression of the KJV and incorporate it into his own work with some variation and change so that it didn't appear as a carbon copy. He knew that the KJV was translated out of the original tongues and he would depend on that translation as a kind of prophetic expression and template in which God would reveal his word to the Nephites.

Before Smith began to dictate he had already decided the type of language and expression he would use and it would mirror the KJV. He wanted his work to sound as ancient as possible and avoid any modern terms or expressions. Smith's use of the word START on five occasions was a flop and it rolled off his tongue by mistake. He didn't realize it. His own trick cards fooled him. He never caught it while editing and reviewing the publisher's manuscript. Had he caught them he would have corrected it and penned in different words. Of that, I feel quite confident. Just as those five cards have fooled everyone for nearly 200 years so also they fooled Smith. So, none of us should be feel bad about it. Not even RFM.

[Kishkumen]

In the ancient Mediterranean world, Homer's Greek was a prestige literary dialect that was commonly emulated by the oracles of the gods. In "translating" the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith spoke in the oracular language of his time, the KJV. This is a lot more interesting to me than all of this speculation about his "mistakes," because even those alleged mistakes say something about how he used the English language in forming his own special oracular language--whether it is viewed as artificial in the sense of a pre-composed work that was not received by inspiration, or as a special oracular language that Joseph spoke in according to perceived divine direction.

[Shulem]

Very few people really understand Joseph Smith's thought process.

I'll put myself in the very shoes of Joseph Smith.

Suppose I know that I'm creating a pious fraud and writing pseudepigrapha but will tell everyone that my work is divinely inspired and comes from God by way of a translation from gold plates given me from an imaginary angel of my own making. I will use the language of the Bible in which I'm very familiar and incorporate that by infusing it into the stories and text which I will claim was translated from the plates. I will claim the book is the most correct book on earth but not a perfect book because there will be some errors on my part in making this book.

Hypothetical conversation between Joseph & Oliver after translating:

OLIVER: Brother Joseph, I noticed while reviewing the manuscript that the word "start" is used several times in some verses that entail Nephite journeys. I don't believe that word is of biblical origin and they use began or other words to imply a beginning.

JOSEPH: Let me review that if you would be so kind.

OLIVER: The Lord will bless you to find the right word if it is his divine will.

JOSEPH: Brother Oliver, In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth and everything begins but nothing was said to "start". I see that the word was used five times while I was translating the circumstances of the said journeys. We will correct this to bring it in harmony with God's word as given in the Bible.

OLIVER: Yes, that sounds well and good brother Joseph.

HYPOTHETICAL MANSUSCRIPT CORRECTIONS:

And it came to pass that on the morrow they started began to go up, having with them one Ammon, he being a strong and mighty man, and a descendant of Zarahemla; and he was also their leader.

And yet, I being over-zealous to inherit the land of our fathers, collected as many as were desirous to go up to possess the land, and started begun again on our journey into the wilderness to go up to the land; but we were smitten with famine and sore afflictions; for we were slow to remember the Lord our God.

And now, these are the words of Ammon to his brethren, which say thus: My brothers and my brethren, behold I say unto you, how great reason have we to rejoice; for could we have supposed when we started did proceed from the land of Zarahemla that God would have granted unto us such great blessings?

And now it came to pass that after we had thus taken care of our wounded men, and had buried our dead and also the dead of the Lamanites, who were many, behold, we did inquire of Gid concerning the prisoners whom they had started took their journey to go down to the land of Zarahemla with.

And now, these are the words which Gid said unto me: Behold, we did start commence to go down to the land of Zarahemla with our prisoners. And it came to pass that we did meet the spies of our armies, who had been sent out to watch the camp of the Lamanites.

[Kishkumen]

I'll put myself in the very shoes of Joseph Smith.

Suppose I know that I'm creating a pious fraud and writing pseudepigrapha but will tell everyone that my work is divinely inspired and comes from God by way of a translation from gold plates given me from an imaginary angel of my own making. I will use the language of the Bible in which I'm very familiar and incorporate that by infusing it into the stories and text which I will claim was translated from the plates. I will claim the book is the most correct book on earth but not a perfect book because there will be some errors on my part in making this book.

I really don't believe that you or really most other secular scholars have a special insight into Joseph Smith's thinking. That said, there is plenty of good work done in that vein and I would much rather have it than not.

The fundamental problem is that many people study religion from a jaded perspective in which everything is about power, money, or sex. Religion is seen as a palliative or a cynical means to an end, but it is less often studied on its own terms.

[Shulem]

I really don't believe that you or really most other secular scholars have a special insight into Joseph Smith's thinking. That said, there is plenty of good work done in that vein and I would much rather have it than not.

The fundamental problem is that many people study religion from a jaded perspective in which everything is about power, money, or sex. Religion is seen as a palliative or a cynical means to an end, but it is less often studied on its own terms.

I personally enjoy finding faults and mistakes made by Joseph Smith's so-called ability to translate. I expect consistency and correctness all the way around from START to finish. I don't get that with the Book of Mormon except for his chronology which is nearly flawless. It gives me satisfaction to uncover things that have been covered for a long time, whether it be the scraped off nose of Anubis, geography of Delmarva, or in this case a simple use of the wrong word five times. I will personal channel Joseph Smith to get the information I need for my full satisfaction. And I do.

I'm calling Joseph Smith out on it! It gives me satisfaction and fulfillment to correct the prophet with his choice of words.

And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men;

I do believe the examples above provide excellent clarification and correction in showing how Joseph Smith needed to be corrected for mistakes he made while his head was buried in a hat under the so-called influence of the Holy Ghost.

I rest my case. I've made my point and it's clear to me.

[Kishkumen]

I personally enjoy finding faults and mistakes made by Joseph Smith's so-called ability to translate. I expect consistency and correctness all the way around from START to finish. I don't get that with the Book of Mormon except for his chronology which is nearly flawless. It gives me satisfaction to uncover things that have been covered for a long time, whether it be the scraped off nose of Anubis, geography of Delmarva, or in this case a simple use of the wrong word five times. I will personal channel Joseph Smith to get the information I need for my full satisfaction. And I do.

I'm calling Joseph Smith out on it! It gives me satisfaction and fulfillment to correct the prophet with his choice of words.

I like your word studies to be sure. I just don't always agree with your idea of what a mistake in the translation is.

[Shulem]

I like your word studies to be sure. I just don't always agree with your idea of what a mistake in the translation is.

I understand, Kish. I grant others won't always agree with me. No hard feelings. I love you all the same and always will. You're a great scholar!