What pirate didn't have a map while sailing about with treasure? What treasure digger didn't consult maps? Young Joseph was very aware that the Susquehanna River led into the land northward and that its southern mouth emptied into Sea West at the narrow neck. All of this was impressed into the mind of Joseph Smith long before he ever said, "I Nephi, having been born of goodly parents."
As far as the Provo apologists go, their views on the Mexican location are probably like Sauron's view of the One Ring. There is too much invested in it, no matter how flawed, to let go. Shulem tossing the Mesoamerican theory into Mount Doom will cause them to shatter into a thousand pieces and the Interpreter Ziggurat to sink into the sea. Perhaps that explains MG's reticence.
For those who are just now learning about Delmarva or have not researched my work, I kindly provide links to the THREE threads recently presented on this Message Board that showcase my work and provide means for everyone to understand how Joseph Smith determined and formulated his Book of Mormon geography.
Forget about everything you learned from the apologists!
Forget about FARMS!
Forget what Book of Mormon experts have been saying!
Forget about all the imaginary geography models -- they are all wrong!
Shulem wrote:It's time to embrace Delmarva, the one true model for the Book of Mormon. The model Joseph Smith used to tell his story.
I'd love to see you submit your work to Interpreter. Just to see what B.S. excuse they give for why it gets rejected.
The Interpreter is all about interpreting faith promoting material and toeing the line and conforming to the standard of a historical book of ancient scripture. They will dismiss Delmarva because there is no archeological evidence to support it and the terrain is too flat.
Official Statement: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints wrote:The Church does not take a position on the specific geographic locations of Book of Mormon events in the ancient Americas. Speculation on the geography of the Book of Mormon may mislead instead of enlighten; such a study can be a distraction from its divine purpose.
A picture is worth a thousand words. Mesoamerican buildings and palm trees make a definite statement in implying that this is the inspired geographical view of Bountiful that the Church has chosen to portray. Mountains with jagged peaks make for a position that Bountiful is situated near tall mountains. The position in which the Church implies is that it never snows in Bountiful or Zarahemla, it pours, man, it pours!
The position in which the Church implies is that it never snows in Bountiful or Zarahemla, it pours, man, it pours!
Apologists quickly point out that the Book of Mormon frequently mentions heat but never mentions any winter conditions whereby snow and cold dominate the climate during that time of year. Admittedly, the Book of Mormon doesn't talk about winter. The Book of Mormon stories come alive mostly during the spring and continue through summer.
In the Celestial Forum, I discuss chronology and list all references for the months of the year. Please note that the winter months receive little representation in the stories and narrative of the Book of Mormon; of course snow isn't mentioned. The stories occurred during the warm season. Do note that in Alma 49 when the Lamanites attacked the well fortified city of Ammonihah unsuccessfully, the Lamanites at that time were wearing "garments of skins, yea, very thick garments to cover their nakedness" which not only would protect their persons but keep them warm during the month of February when it's usually quite cold. The Lamanites in these circumstances also armed themselves with shields and breastplates but it's the thick skins that tend to suggest the weather may have been cold. The author was aware it was that time of year.
Alma and Amulek were deprived of food and clothing while in prison during the 10th month (January). That made for very inhuman conditions in Smith's storytelling.
1 April
2 May
3 June
4 July
5 August
6 September
7 October
8 November
9 December
10 January
11 February
12 March
Alma 2:1 commencement of the fifth year
Alma 4:11 commencement of the ninth year
Alma 8:3 commencement of the tenth year
Alma 30:5 commencement of the seventeenth year
Alma 43:4 commencement of the eighteenth year
Alma 45:20 commencement of the nineteenth year
Alma 50:1 commence in the commencement of the twentieth year
Alma 50:17 commencement of the twenty and first year
Alma 50:25 commencement of the twenty and fourth year
Alma 51:1 commencement of the twenty and fifth year
Alma 52:1 first morning of the first month (New Year’s day)
Alma 52:19 commencement of the twenty and eighth year
Alma 54:1 commencement of the twenty and ninth year
Alma 56:20 commencement of the twenty and seventh year
Alma 56:1 commencement of the thirtieth year of the reign of the judges, on the second day in the first month
Alma 57:6 commencement of the twenty and ninth year
Alma 62:12 commencement of the thirty and first year
Alma 63:1 commencement of the thirty and sixth year
Helaman 1:1 commencement of the fortieth year
Helaman 6:16 commencement of the sixty and seventh year
Helaman 11:30 commencement of the eighty and first year
3 Nephi 1:4 commencement of the ninety and second year
3 Nephi 2:17 the commencement of the fourteenth year
3 Nephi 6:17 commencement of the thirtieth year
3 Nephi 7:23 commencement of the thirty and third year
3 Nephi 8:5 in the first month, on the fourth day of the month
TWELFTH MONTH is alluded to in general terms as the end of the year or thereabouts
Alma 3:25 commenced and ended in the fifth year
Alma 8:2 And thus ended the ninth year
Alma 15:19 ended the tenth year
Alma 16:9 ended the eleventh year
Alma 51:37 endeth the twenty and fifth year
Alma 52:14 in the ending of the twenty and sixth year
Alma 52:18 latter end of the twenty and seventh year
Alma 55:35 ended the twenty and ninth year
Alma 58:38 the twenty and ninth year, in the latter end
3 Nephi 3:22 in the latter end of the year
3 Nephi 4:1 latter end of the eighteenth year
Only eight other references of other months occur during the 600-year time span. Notably, the third, fourth, fifth, eighth, and ninth months have no representation in the chronological narrative.
SECOND MONTH
Alma 16:1 on the fifth day of the second month
Alma 56:27 in the second month of this year
SIXTH MONTH
3 Nephi 4:7 in the sixth month
3 Nephi 4:11 commenced in this the sixth month
SEVENTH MONTH
Alma 10:6 fourth day of this seventh month, which is in the tenth year
Alma 56:42 of the third day of the seventh month
TENTH MONTH
Alma 14:23 twelfth day, in the tenth month, in the tenth year
Do you think he referenced some notes and maps before going to do the hat trick every day?
Yes, absolutely. He used notes and had an outline and kept track of what he was doing. It's far too complicated for him not to have. There is no way anyone could have dictated those stories without keeping track of the chronology even though it was not flawless.
I'm thoroughly unimpressed by the book, it's much too boring to have allowed me to appreciate those meticulous details you say are in there.
Shulem, I think you’ve reinforced an important point. Joseph couldn’t have dictated the Book of Mormon without help of some kind. The problem we encounter is that there are no references or any evidences leading one to think Joseph was keeping track of what he was doing. He would simply pick up from where he had left off in the dictation without any reminders of where he had left off. No notes. No record of any flowchart or anything like unto it.
And drumdude, I think you might benefit by sitting down with a person of the caliber of Brant Gardner. He might be able to convince you of the fact that the Book of Mormon is full of a meticulously laid out narrative with many interwoven details (geopolitical, geography, name references, etc.) from one chapter/section to the next that would have been a real ‘hat trick’ for Joseph to dictate ‘on the fly’.
Shulem, I think you’ve reinforced an important point. Joseph couldn’t have dictated the Book of Mormon without help of some kind. The problem we encounter is that there are no references or any evidences leading one to think Joseph was keeping track of what he was doing. He would simply pick up from where he had left off in the dictation without any reminders of where he had left off. No notes. No record of any flowchart or anything like unto it.
There have been some great conversation in some threads on this board about how Smith performed certain hat tricks and was able to fool his scribes (including his wife) by employing simply magician tricks in which Smith was quite good at.
RFM has a pair of great podcast that examine Smith's technique. Click and listen:
And drumdude, I think you might benefit by sitting down with a person of the caliber of Brant Gardner. He might be able to convince you of the fact that the Book of Mormon is full of a meticulously laid out narrative with many interwoven details (geopolitical, geography, name references, etc.) from one chapter/section to the next that would have been a real ‘hat trick’ for Joseph to dictate ‘on the fly’.
Don't do it, drumdude. Brant Gardner is brainwashed and poisons the well. He works totally on the basis that the Book of Mormon is a genuine historical book. Avoid those people at all cost. They will lead you astray.
