Shulem to a wider audience

[drumdude]

The events of the Book of Mormon are as real as the events of the Harry Potter books.


MG 2.0 can't point them out on a map any more than he can point out Hogwarts on a map.

Guilt by association? Is that ALL you have?

Regards,
MG

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Even the Harry Potter books had a concrete location, in England. Mormons can't even figure out if the Book of Mormon happened in upstate New York or South America.

[MG 2.0]

Guilt by association? Is that ALL you have?

Regards,
MG

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

You know, I’ve heard this over and over again. What makes this true? As a matter of fact?

Because the facts don’t seem to bear this out.

My guess is that if you take 10 intelligent believers, 9 out of 10 are going to disagree with you. At least in the sense that objective and verifiable ‘facts’ are the primary reason they believe.

I think that where you and I (and other believers) may disagree is on the necessity of faith.

Shulem and you are not alone in your demands for extraordinary evidence. Many there are that are floating in various boats of their own making out on the wide and open ocean of disbelief.

Regards,
MG

[drumdude]

You know, I’ve heard this over and over again. What makes this true? As a matter of fact?

I've got a bank account in Nigeria with 10 million dollars in it. I just need $100,000 from you to get it out, and then we'll split the rest.

You don't need any evidence, right?

[Marcus]

For a fact? I don’t know. But that doesn’t really matter. There are other things that are much more important.

Yes, it really, really, does matter. You know where the Sea of Galilee is and where the cedars of Lebanon are. You know about the Red Sea and exactly how to get to Egypt. I'll bet you can even find Jerusalem on a map! Of course you can. All that is necessary in order to understand the geography of the Bible and its place in a world setting. A testimony of the geography based on facts. But not so with the Book of Mormon. You can't show me on a map where the capital city of Zarahemla is or the great Bountiful temple in which Jesus appeared before thousands of people. You can't show me that narrow neck of land that takes only a day to cross from sea to sea exactly as described in the text.

Will you bear me your testimony that you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is a narrow neck of land on the map, somewhere, exactly as described in the Book of Mormon? Bear me your testimony that you know it's there, on the map.

That's a great request. It gets right to the heart of the matter. Does the narrow neck really exist? Or not?

[Shulem]

That's a great request. It gets right to the heart of the matter. Does the narrow neck really exist? Or not?

I'd be happy if MG would vote and let's see which one is his top pick. Then we can go from there.

A) Panama
B) Belize-Yucatan base
C) Tehuantepec
D) Niagara Peninsula
E) Delmarva Peninsula


MG, which of the above do you pick? Pick one. Pick the one you think works best, but please, just pick one!

I know you can do it. Which one do you favor most?

[MG 2.0]

That's a great request. It gets right to the heart of the matter. Does the narrow neck really exist? Or not?

I'd be happy if MG would vote and let's see which one is his top pick. Then we can go from there.

A) Panama
B) Belize-Yucatan base
C) Tehuantepec
D) Niagara Peninsula
E) Delmarva Peninsula


MG, which of the above do you pick? Pick one. Pick the one you think works best, but please, just pick one!

I know you can do it. Which one do you favor most?

I don’t know that I have a firm opinion on any of these. I’ve looked at some of them and find pros and cons with each. Along the way I’ve wondered if Book of Mormon lands are readily navigable/explorable at this point. Whether they might be hidden/accessible.

I’m sure you’ve seen (well, maybe not so sure…if you haven’t read Richard Lloyd Anderson…) documentaries where LiDAR technology is used to map out lost civilizations. I’m not totally convinced that we’ve found the actual location of where the Nephites and Lamanites once lived.

Maybe, maybe not.

Thomas Stewart Ferguson gave it a go and look where it got him.

That’s why I think there are more productive conversations to have such as Joseph the Magician. I do thank you for the reference to RFM’s podcast. It demonstrates the lengths at which folks will go to explain what seems to be unexplainable.

Yep! The critics do it too.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

That's a great request. It gets right to the heart of the matter. Does the narrow neck really exist? Or not?

I'd be happy if MG would vote and let's see which one is his top pick. Then we can go from there.

A) Panama
B) Belize-Yucatan base
C) Tehuantepec
D) Niagara Peninsula
E) Delmarva Peninsula


MG, which of the above do you pick? Pick one. Pick the one you think works best, but please, just pick one!

I know you can do it. Which one do you favor most?

If I am reading mentalgymnast correctly, he might be going for a wormhole neck. Kind of like how the movie Contact deposited Jodie Foster on the planet Vega. Now that would be a twist!

[Shulem]

A) Panama
B) Belize-Yucatan base
C) Tehuantepec
D) Niagara Peninsula
E) Delmarva Peninsula

I don’t know that I have a firm opinion on any of these.

What do you mean you don't know that you have a firm opinion? Either you know or you don't. The fact that you refuse to pick one means you don't. So, when are you going to get a firm opinion? In this life or the next?

I’ve looked at some of them and find pros and cons with each.

What do you mean you've only looked at some of them? I would think that you've looked at all of the ones listed above; all five! You've done a lot of research on this subject, have you not? Now, if you're looking at the map of the holy land in the Old World, you will find all pros and no cons, because that's the land of the Bible! The same should be the case for Book of Mormon lands in the New World. There should be nothing but pros, no cons.

Along the way I’ve wondered if Book of Mormon lands are readily navigable/explorable at this point. Whether they might be hidden/accessible.

So, the lands just disappeared into the Twilight Zone? They were sucked up into a black hole? Hidden by what? Egypt hasn't disappeared, it's still there. Israel hasn't disappeared either, it's still there. The Mediterranean and Red Seas are still there too.

I’m not totally convinced that we’ve found the actual location of where the Nephites and Lamanites once lived.

Where did Lehi land? The lengths you go to in order to explain what seems to be unexplainable is astounding, MG. You can't even tell me where Lehi landed let along what continent it was. You're really lost when it comes to Book of Mormon geography. Can't you just ask God and get an answer? Are you afraid to ask God? Maybe he will be angry with you for doing so? Or are you afraid that he just won't give you an answer? You know, I don't think your God tells you much of anything. You pray to him and worship him but he won't tell you anything about Book of Mormon geography because the Church tells you that you have no right to ask him.

So many questions. So few answers; that's you, MG.

[MG 2.0]

A) Panama
B) Belize-Yucatan base
C) Tehuantepec
D) Niagara Peninsula
E) Delmarva Peninsula

I don’t know that I have a firm opinion on any of these.

What do you mean you don't know that you have a firm opinion? Either you know or you don't. The fact that you refuse to pick one means you don't. So, when are you going to get a firm opinion? In this life or the next?

I’ve looked at some of them and find pros and cons with each.

What do you mean you've only looked at some of them? I would think that you've looked at all of the ones listed above; all five! You've done a lot of research on this subject, have you not? Now, if you're looking at the map of the holy land in the Old World, you will find all pros and no cons, because that's the land of the Bible! The same should be the case for Book of Mormon lands in the New World. There should be nothing but pros, no cons.

Along the way I’ve wondered if Book of Mormon lands are readily navigable/explorable at this point. Whether they might be hidden/accessible.

So, the lands just disappeared into the Twilight Zone? They were sucked up into a black hole? Hidden by what? Egypt hasn't disappeared, it's still there. Israel hasn't disappeared either, it's still there. The Mediterranean and Red Seas are still there too.

I’m not totally convinced that we’ve found the actual location of where the Nephites and Lamanites once lived.

Where did Lehi land? The lengths you go to in order to explain what seems to be unexplainable is astounding, MG. You can't even tell me where Lehi landed let along what continent it was. You're really lost when it comes to Book of Mormon geography. Can't you just ask God and get an answer? Are you afraid to ask God? Maybe he will be angry with you for doing so? Or are you afraid that he just won't give you an answer? You know, I don't think your God tells you much of anything. You pray to him and worship him but he won't tell you anything about Book of Mormon geography because the Church tells you that you have no right to ask him.

So many questions. So few answers; that's you, MG.

You left this one comment of mine out:

I’m sure you’ve seen (well, maybe not so sure…if you haven’t read Richard Lloyd Anderson…) documentaries where LiDAR technology is used to map out lost civilizations. I’m not totally convinced that we’ve found the actual location of where the Nephites and Lamanites once lived.

It’s as if you’ve already come to the conclusion that everything there is to know is known or hypothesized. Thus, your limited list of narrow neck choices.

Book of Mormon archeology/geography is still ‘in play’.

I don’t think that we necessarily have to take that route. New discoveries of lost cities and connected geographies are taking place as we speak through LiDAR technology and further discovery.

You’re saying the fat lady has already sung. I’m not so sure.

Regards,
MG

[Shulem]

You left this one comment of mine out:

I’m sure you’ve seen (well, maybe not so sure…if you haven’t read Richard Lloyd Anderson…) documentaries where LiDAR technology is used to map out lost civilizations. I’m not totally convinced that we’ve found the actual location of where the Nephites and Lamanites once lived.

Yes, I left it out. The wishy-washy bit about being sure/not sure about me reading a book was skipped over because I don't care about those books. I'm having a conversation with you, not your books. Since you've read the books you should be able to speak for the points in them that you agree with rather than sending me off to read another book which I won't do.

It’s as if you’ve already come to the conclusion that everything there is to know is known or hypothesized. Thus, your limited list of narrow neck choices.

Book of Mormon archeology/geography is still ‘in play’.

If you don't like limited list then make a larger list and tell me which is your first pick. Book of Mormon archeology is nonexistent. The Philip Jenkins and Bill Hamblin debate makes that point perfectly clear. Book of Mormon geography for Church members is fantasy. Just look at all those maps that disagree and contradict each other. It's a church divided among itself and something so divided cannot stand. So said Jesus.

The fat lady has sung. I know the Delmarva theory is true. I have a testimony of that. LiDAR technology is not going to save the Book of Mormon. It's just an excuse for not having anything to show for. So far, MG, you've given me nothing -- you have nothing to show for. You've come up empty.