LDS Scout Leader charged with several counts of criminal sexual conduct.

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doubtingthomas
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Re: LDS Scout Leader charged with several counts of criminal sexual conduct.

Post by doubtingthomas »

Kukulkan wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:14 am

Only one of those two worlds allows for children to be exposed to predators who would abuse their position of authority to harm children.
I completely agree, but I am talking about IHAQ's "unintentional grooming". Does unintentional grooming really create an more dangerous environment for the dudes?
Last edited by doubtingthomas on Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Marcus
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Re: LDS Scout Leader charged with several counts of criminal sexual conduct.

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Kukulkan wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:14 am
...Oh well, I guess it is true because the Holy Ghost told us...
I think we both know that there aren't any statistics out there that will show either way that the church causes harm vs it doesn't.

What I think we both can agree on is that one of these two worlds is logically safer for kids.

World 1: A world where children are not alone with adult men where they are asked sexually provocative questions.

World 2: A world where children ARE alone with adult men where they are asked sexually provocative questions....
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Re: LDS Scout Leader charged with several counts of criminal sexual conduct.

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doubtingthomas wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:20 am
I completely agree, but I am talking about IHAQ's "unintentional grooming". Does unintentional grooming really create an more dangerous environment for the dudes?
I think that even the ages 10-20 are a very emotionally and mentally difficult time for adolescents. At that age you are trying to figure your place in the world, getting a first understanding of power dynamics around you and where you fit in them. It is a time of incredible self awareness and self consciousness. Add that emotional state to a situation where you have an authority figure cloaked in religious power, I do think that even those who are older (15 and up) do face a significant threat when it comes to grooming both intentional and unintentional.
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Re: LDS Scout Leader charged with several counts of criminal sexual conduct.

Post by doubtingthomas »

Marcus wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:23 am
Kukulkan wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:14 am

I think we both know that there aren't any statistics out there that will show either way that the church causes harm vs it doesn't.
I'm completely with Kukulkan, but I don't see how "unintentional grooming" creates a more dangerous environment for the dudes. So, imagine a Bishop asking some dude, "son, do you watch porn?", how exactly would the question make the dude more vulnerable?
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Re: LDS Scout Leader charged with several counts of criminal sexual conduct.

Post by doubtingthomas »

Kukulkan wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:27 am

I think that even the ages 10-20 are a very emotionally and mentally difficult time for adolescents. At that age you are trying to figure your place in the world, getting a first understanding of power dynamics around you and where you fit in them. It is a time of incredible self awareness and self consciousness. Add that emotional state to a situation where you have an authority figure cloaked in religious power, I do think that even those who are older (15 and up) do face a significant threat when it comes to grooming both intentional and unintentional.
Again, I am with you. As I said earlier, I disagree with the one-on-one interviews, I do think one-on-one interviews should end, but I still don't see how "unintentional grooming" would make a dude more vulnerable.
Kukulkan wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:27 am
At that age you are trying to figure your place in the world
For a 20 year old? The same could be said about many 25 and 30 year olds. People in low-income households do tend to grow up much faster.
Last edited by doubtingthomas on Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Marcus
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Re: LDS Scout Leader charged with several counts of criminal sexual conduct.

Post by Marcus »

Kukulkan wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:27 am
doubtingthomas wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:20 am
I completely agree, but I am talking about IHAQ's "unintentional grooming". Does unintentional grooming really create an more dangerous environment for the dudes?
I think that even the ages 10-20 are a very emotionally and mentally difficult time for adolescents. At that age you are trying to figure your place in the world, getting a first understanding of power dynamics around you and where you fit in them. It is a time of incredible self awareness and self consciousness. Add that emotional state to a situation where you have an authority figure cloaked in religious power, I do think that even those who are older (15 and up) do face a significant threat when it comes to grooming both intentional and unintentional.
Yes, and this applies to all, not just "the dudes".
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Re: LDS Scout Leader charged with several counts of criminal sexual conduct.

Post by Kukulkan »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:31 am
I'm completely with Kukulkan, but I don't see how "unintentional grooming" creates a more dangerous environment for the dudes. So, imagine a Bishop asking some dude, "son, do you watch porn?", how exactly would the question make the dude more vulnerable?
I think you might be misunderstanding what these situations look like. It isn't always the Hollywoodesque typical villain rubbing his hands together and cackling that he is going to molest a kid. Often time it begins unintentionally with certain sexual topics being raised causing arousal for the adult. Naturally seeking stronger and stronger sexual feelings, the 'discussion' about sex or masturbation doesn't suffice and then begins to take on a more physical nature. The process is not something occurs generally within a few meetings, it is often drawn out over months or even years.
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Re: LDS Scout Leader charged with several counts of criminal sexual conduct.

Post by Kukulkan »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:34 am
For a 20 year old? The same could be said about many 25 and 30 year olds. People in low-income households do tend to grow up much faster.
We know from science that the brain is fully developed around 25 years old. Arguably, post 25 an individual would have better decision making skills that would give them a better defense against someone attempting to groom them. I am not saying people over 25 don't get groomed, I am just saying someone pre 25 is probably more likely to be because they lack a fully developed brain.
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Re: LDS Scout Leader charged with several counts of criminal sexual conduct.

Post by doubtingthomas »

Kukulkan wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:39 am
We know from science that the brain is fully developed around 25 years old.
On average. For many it is around 30. It is around 19 for people in low-income households. We are all different.
Kukulkan wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:39 am
Arguably, post 25 an individual would have better decision making skills that would give them a better defense against someone attempting to groom them.
I would say 30 to 45. People over 50 don't have better decision making skills.
Kukulkan wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:37 am
I think you might be misunderstanding what these situations look like. It isn't always the Hollywoodesque typical villain rubbing his hands together and cackling that he is going to molest a kid. Often time it begins unintentionally with certain sexual topics being raised causing arousal for the adult. Naturally seeking stronger and stronger sexual feelings, the 'discussion' about sex or masturbation doesn't suffice and then begins to take on a more physical nature.
That would be long-term grooming? I get what you are saying, that is why I don't support the one-on-one interviews.
Last edited by doubtingthomas on Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LDS Scout Leader charged with several counts of criminal sexual conduct.

Post by Kukulkan »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:48 am
On average. For many it is around 30. It is around 19 for people in low-income households. We are all different.
I would argue that the science differs from what you are saying. Here are some sources. Do you have some sources that back up your claim that I could read? I am open to changing my stance if you can provide evidence. I would be highly surprised to see that low income people have an accelerated development of their pre-frontal cortex. That would be quite amazing.

https://www.businessinsider.com/age-bra ... ng-2017-11

https://sites.duke.edu/apep/module-3-al ... rs-of-age/

https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclop ... entID=3051

doubtingthomas wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:48 am
I would say 30 to 45. People over 50 older don't have better decision making skills.
Would you say an 18 year old or a 25 year old has better decision making skills?
doubtingthomas wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:48 am
That would be long-term grooming? I get what you are saying, that is why I don't support the one-on-one interviews.
I think you are making up categories that don't need to exist. Grooming is grooming. Go read any of the stories of people that were molested by a Mormon Bishop. The trend seems to be a slow and steady increase in inappropriate behavior. They weren't getting molested on the first, second, or even third visit. You were asking about grooming (intentional and unintentional) and I am giving you an idea of what that looks like.
"I advise all to go on to perfection and search deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness." -Joseph Smith
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