LDS Scout Leader charged with several counts of criminal sexual conduct.

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Re: LDS Scout Leader charged with several counts of criminal sexual conduct.

Post by IHAQ »

Marcus wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:04 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:44 pm
….Do you know what trust is? It's an emotion like signal that something in your brain sends to that part that think's it's you. And that part that thinks it's you believes the other part, just like an LDS person trusts the Holy Ghost. Mormons just have a fancy label for the signal and attribute it to the divine. But you place as much "blind faith" in that signal from some part of your brain as the LDS person puts in theirs. Even when you think you are being "rational" when you trust that signal, the idea that you are being rational is just another signal from another part of your brain that you are placing the same kind of blind faith in that the LDS person does.
I strongly disagree with this, and I don’t think you are using “trust” in this section as most in this conversation have implied. There is a huge difference between the kind of trust developed by observing behavior, investigating a situation, evaluating repeated encounters, etc.; and the kind of trust that comes from believing in a supernatural power, and deciding that a person expressing a similar belief can therefore be trusted solely on that basis, or because the Holy Ghost “told” you so.

I’m sure there is plenty of overlap, and plenty of emotion involved, and no one is all one way or the other, so I’m not arguing that, but on average, it is not reasonable to suggest that a person using the first type of trust can be stated to be behaving in a manner “just like an LDS person trusts the Holy Ghost.
…Mormons just have a fancy label for the signal and attribute it to the divine. But you place as much "blind faith" in that signal from some part of your brain as the LDS person puts in theirs.
By virtue of how that trust can be developed, again I disagree. The reason Utah is the affinity fraud capital of the world is because there is a quantifiable difference how the two types of trust, defined as supernatural-based or not, are exercised.
I completely agree with your rebuttal of Res Ipsa’s comments.
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Re: LDS Scout Leader charged with several counts of criminal sexual conduct.

Post by Res Ipsa »

Marcus wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:04 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:44 pm
….Do you know what trust is? It's an emotion like signal that something in your brain sends to that part that think's it's you. And that part that thinks it's you believes the other part, just like an LDS person trusts the Holy Ghost. Mormons just have a fancy label for the signal and attribute it to the divine. But you place as much "blind faith" in that signal from some part of your brain as the LDS person puts in theirs. Even when you think you are being "rational" when you trust that signal, the idea that you are being rational is just another signal from another part of your brain that you are placing the same kind of blind faith in that the LDS person does.
I strongly disagree with this, and I don’t think you are using “trust” in this section as most in this conversation have implied. There is a huge difference between the kind of trust developed by observing behavior, investigating a situation, evaluating repeated encounters, etc.; and the kind of trust that comes from believing in a supernatural power, and deciding that a person expressing a similar belief can therefore be trusted solely on that basis, or because the Holy Ghost “told” you so.

I’m sure there is plenty of overlap, and plenty of emotion involved, and no one is all one way or the other, so I’m not arguing that, but on average, it is not reasonable to suggest that a person using the first type of trust can be stated to be behaving in a manner “just like an LDS person trusts the Holy Ghost.
…Mormons just have a fancy label for the signal and attribute it to the divine. But you place as much "blind faith" in that signal from some part of your brain as the LDS person puts in theirs.
By virtue of how that trust can be developed, again I disagree. The reason Utah is the affinity fraud capital of the world is because there is a quantifiable difference how the two types of trust, defined as supernatural-based or not, are exercised.
Is it the affinity fraud capital of the entire world? Just asking because I have no idea.

My comment was about trusting the "holy ghost," not an arbitrary rule to trust people in certain positions of power. I think of those as two very different things. I think there are good heuristics one can follow to reduce the chance of being hurt by trusting the wrong person. Blindly trusting a person because of a position they hold, whether it be family member, occupation, political figure, religious figure, etc. is not one of those heuristics. Asking "does this sound too good to be true" is one of them. Asking "is this person isolating me from family and friends" is one of them. And so on.

But, at bottom, we're all dealing with brain signals. The holy ghost is a brain signal. When it helps you find your keys, the brain signal you get is subjectively indistinguishable from the brain signal you get after thinking step by step through your activities since the last time you remember using your keys. It's just brain signals. And if you experience the two as different, that's just another brain signal telling you that they are different. in my opinion, that should induce a certain level of humility when describing other people's thought processes.
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Re: LDS Scout Leader charged with several counts of criminal sexual conduct.

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Marcus wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 5:31 am
doubtingthomas wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 4:21 am
…how would you explain the Pew 2019 data?
What does this have to do with the topic? Please start your own thread if this is what you want to talk about, because it has NOTHING to do with the opening post, which was this:
IHAQ wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 8:16 am

https://www.crainsdetroit.com/news/form ... nal-sexual

The Church needs to acknowledge and embrace that it has a problem as big (if not bigger) as the Catholic Church has been facing with sexual predators gaining positions of trust and responsibility. The Church still doesn’t run background checks before appointing people to leadership positions with responsibility for minors.
Does the LDS church have as big a problem with sexual predators as the Catholic Church has (or has had over the years)? Are there any studies that show this? How about in comparison with other religious groups?
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Re: LDS Scout Leader charged with several counts of criminal sexual conduct.

Post by Binger »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 4:20 pm
Marcus wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 5:31 am

What does this have to do with the topic? Please start your own thread if this is what you want to talk about, because it has NOTHING to do with the opening post, which was this:

Does the LDS church have as big a problem with sexual predators as the Catholic Church has (or has had over the years)? Are there any studies that show this? How about in comparison with other religious groups?
Yes. Yes. Yes.
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Re: LDS Scout Leader charged with several counts of criminal sexual conduct.

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Binger wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 4:25 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 4:20 pm


Does the LDS church have as big a problem with sexual predators as the Catholic Church has (or has had over the years)? Are there any studies that show this? How about in comparison with other religious groups?
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes, yes, yes there are studies?
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Re: LDS Scout Leader charged with several counts of criminal sexual conduct.

Post by Binger »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 4:39 pm
Binger wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 4:25 pm


Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes, yes, yes there are studies?
Yes.
K&M has them. Plaintiffs in Washington and in Nevada had them. I am sure you already knew that. Not sure why this is a question.
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Re: LDS Scout Leader charged with several counts of criminal sexual conduct.

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Binger wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 4:45 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 4:39 pm


Yes, yes, yes there are studies?
Yes.
K&M has them. Plaintiffs in Washington and in Nevada had them. I am sure you already knew that. Not sure why this is a question.
It’s a question because I don’t recall seeing such studies. I don’t read everything ever published and I don’t recall everything I’ve ever read. I don’t suppose you have a reference.
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Re: LDS Scout Leader charged with several counts of criminal sexual conduct.

Post by Marcus »

I don’t need to see a formal comparison of the numbers to know there’s a problem that’s not being addressed, especially with regard to the OP’s comment that the lds organization ”…still doesn’t run background checks before appointing people to leadership positions with responsibility for minors.”

The Catholic Church does, as do most youth organizations and many other church groups, at least in my experience. Why the lds church is holding out on implementing these types of best practices is beyond me.
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Re: LDS Scout Leader charged with several counts of criminal sexual conduct.

Post by Res Ipsa »

Marcus wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 5:39 pm
I don’t need to see a comparison to know there’s a problem that’s not being addressed, especially with regard to the opening post’s comment that the lds organization ”…still doesn’t run background checks before appointing people to leadership positions with responsibility for minors.”

The Catholic Church does, as do most youth organizations and many other church groups, at least in my experience. Why the lds church is holding out on implementing these types of best practices is beyond me.
Oh, I agree. I think not running background checks is foolish, although I don't have a good handle on how many of the cases IHAQ posts about would have been prevented by background checks. It's a small cost and a huge harm, so it makes sense to me to apply the precautionary principle. I had to to get a background check done in order to chaperone field trips when my kids were in school, and that didn't involve any one on one contact with kids.

I've had a couple of cases involving sexual abuse. One was a youth pastor in a protestant church of some flavor. Another was a pastor and involved wife swapping or something. Another was a Buddhist monk of some type. He was more of a cult figure with an unusual cure for chronic headaches... There was "grooming" in each case, with targets being both children and adults. The youth pastor was the most interesting (and scary). He groomed through a video-game like game he played with the young men, involving points and leveling up.

Anyway, having seen details about cases of sexual abuse in religious settings, I'm curious about how different churches, sects, cults, etc. vary in terms of risk of child abuse. The highest risk seems pretty clearly in cults. But I'm not sure that the literature has done much in the way of comparing relative risk among churches and sects.
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Re: LDS Scout Leader charged with several counts of criminal sexual conduct.

Post by Marcus »

Even if background checks don’t actively catch a predator, knowing they are in place is a deterrent. That’s harder to measure, but based on the research presented in the training I had to do before volunteering, it is a preventive element that predators consider and avoid.
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