Is being a "Mormon" as a Man (and Married LDS), Better in the Midst of Wokeism & Secular Culture?

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Kishkumen
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Re: Is being a "Mormon" as a Man (and Married LDS), Better in the Midst of Wokeism & Secular Culture?

Post by Kishkumen »

Free Ranger wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:28 pm
Thank you for sharing. Thanks for your respectful dialogue and support in whatever I end up choosing to do.

Your comments are exactly what I'm looking for to help me think about things. I did try experimenting with going to the Church three years ago before the pandemic, and I just remember being irritated at the scriptural literalism. But I have been rethinking that issue more and more. I think it's kind of necessary for a degree of supernaturalism and literalism among most of the members to keep the whole system functioning. I thought about how the Episcopal church, who are more highly educated and non-literal (on average than compared to other denominations), but does not have the same organizational/fraternal power that Mormonism has; as Shawn Mccraney explains in the video link I shared in this thread.

I've also been drinking coffee, which I started doing about 5 years ago and I think I've benefited from the energy boost. So I may never go back just because of coffee! LOL.

I am also annoyed at some of the culty stuff like not using the word Mormon. But the truth is there's always going to be something I don't like with any organization. I didn't like McConkey Mormonism but now there is Terryl Givens type Mormonism. And Nelson will be replaced by somebody else. It's all relative in my mind.

At the end of the day, if I want to be part of a group with high-minded goals, as you put it, I'm not finding better alternatives.
I haven’t found not observing the rules to be a big issue, when I was attending. So long as you are not taking the sacrament or seeking a temple recommend, you can do as you like and go to the meetings. So long as you are playing nice and not detracting from others’ experience, you should be OK. I tried to ignore silly stuff and focus on the good stuff. Plenty of good stuff is there. People who really annoy you in some ways can be very nice and admirable in other ways. There are always those people you won’t get along with or agree with, but don’t let them spoil it for you. Look for the good in it, and I think you’ll do great.

I do like the Givens and other so-called neo-apologists. I went to one of their meetings for doubters in Utah, and I liked their overall attitude and approach. The Church is an established club with its own rules, dues, and norms. Don’t rock the boat, and you can enjoy it quite a bit. And, you are right, no organization, no culture, no country is going to be perfect. We all give ourselves to something that will not live up to our highest ideals. I think many of us are frankly kind of unrealistic, and we end up throwing out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak. This is the kind of discussion zone where you will see a lot of continuing affirmation of doing just that.

But we all have our different tolerance levels, expectations, and histories. There are plenty of good people here, just as there are in the ward you are thinking of attending. The difference is that you can actually sing with, pray with, chat about spiritual things with those people in the ward. Sure there are some downsides to it, but there are real benefits as well. I have been here on this board for years, and it is a community I appreciate having, but it is no substitute for an in-person spiritual community.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Re: Is being a "Mormon" as a Man (and Married LDS), Better in the Midst of Wokeism & Secular Culture?

Post by Free Ranger »

Kishkumen wrote:
Wed Apr 06, 2022 1:06 am
Free Ranger wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:28 pm
Thank you for sharing. Thanks for your respectful dialogue and support in whatever I end up choosing to do.

Your comments are exactly what I'm looking for to help me think about things. I did try experimenting with going to the Church three years ago before the pandemic, and I just remember being irritated at the scriptural literalism. But I have been rethinking that issue more and more. I think it's kind of necessary for a degree of supernaturalism and literalism among most of the members to keep the whole system functioning. I thought about how the Episcopal church, who are more highly educated and non-literal (on average than compared to other denominations), but does not have the same organizational/fraternal power that Mormonism has; as Shawn Mccraney explains in the video link I shared in this thread.

I've also been drinking coffee, which I started doing about 5 years ago and I think I've benefited from the energy boost. So I may never go back just because of coffee! LOL.

I am also annoyed at some of the culty stuff like not using the word Mormon. But the truth is there's always going to be something I don't like with any organization. I didn't like McConkey Mormonism but now there is Terryl Givens type Mormonism. And Nelson will be replaced by somebody else. It's all relative in my mind.

At the end of the day, if I want to be part of a group with high-minded goals, as you put it, I'm not finding better alternatives.
I haven’t found not observing the rules to be a big issue, when I was attending. So long as you are not taking the sacrament or seeking a temple recommend, you can do as you like and go to the meetings. So long as you are playing nice and not detracting from others’ experience, you should be OK. I tried to ignore silly stuff and focus on the good stuff. Plenty of good stuff is there. People who really annoy you in some ways can be very nice and admirable in other ways. There are always those people you won’t get along with or agree with, but don’t let them spoil it for you. Look for the good in it, and I think you’ll do great.

I do like the Givens and other so-called neo-apologists. I went to one of their meetings for doubters in Utah, and I liked their overall attitude and approach. The Church is an established club with its own rules, dues, and norms. Don’t rock the boat, and you can enjoy it quite a bit. And, you are right, no organization, no culture, no country is going to be perfect. We all give ourselves to something that will not live up to our highest ideals. I think many of us are frankly kind of unrealistic, and we end up throwing out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak. This is the kind of discussion zone where you will see a lot of continuing affirmation of doing just that.

But we all have our different tolerance levels, expectations, and histories. There are plenty of good people here, just as there are in the ward you are thinking of attending. The difference is that you can actually sing with, pray with, chat about spiritual things with those people in the ward. Sure there are some downsides to it, but there are real benefits as well. I have been here on this board for years, and it is a community I appreciate having, but it is no substitute for an in-person spiritual community.
Thanks for those encouraging words of open minded support. I agree with what you said!
K Graham
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Re: Is being a "Mormon" as a Man (and Married LDS), Better in the Midst of Wokeism & Secular Culture?

Post by K Graham »

drumdude wrote:
Thu Mar 31, 2022 6:56 pm
Free Ranger wrote:
Thu Mar 31, 2022 6:47 pm


Someone on here said I was being sexist but mocking men for crying is not sexist? You're also making huge generalizations in your criticisms and I think you are being very unfair to the majority of good Mormon men and hyperfocusing on the "bad" Mormon men. You are not changing my mind. I actually came on here to seriously have my mind changed if I mistaken in my opinions.
I've had to endure way too many testimony meetings, I've earned the right to mock all the men virtue signaling from the stand.

If you can see the problem with virtue signaling in "wokism" then you should be able to easily spot it coming from the men who cry. They're following the pattern they were indoctrinated into, just like "wokism."

In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.
The guy who baptized me once explained that women were more spiritual than men. When I asked what he meant, he used the fact that women tend to cry more and be more emotional. In Mormonism, emotional sensitivity = spirituality.
"I am not an American ... In my view premarital sex should be illegal" - Ajax18
K Graham
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Re: Is being a "Mormon" as a Man (and Married LDS), Better in the Midst of Wokeism & Secular Culture?

Post by K Graham »

Free Ranger wrote:
Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:04 pm
Marcus wrote:
Thu Mar 31, 2022 6:52 pm

:lol: You misunderstand. You ARE sexist, but I have no goal of changing your mind.

nope, again no goal to change you. You are what you are.
sure. Anybody can be sexist. You’re pretty far up the list, however.
please. You made no “arguments” and you demonstrated no “evidence.”

:lol: No. laughing at you, yes.


No, it’s people like you who are sexist. Luckily, many are getting past that. Join us!!
Umm…. Can you rephrase? You’re not really making sense.
Marcus, you ARE sexist. Shall we keep going with this "I know you are but what am I." If you're not interested in a civil discussion to change my mind then what are you trying to accomplish? Does attempting to insult me make you feel good? Are you virtue signalling? What is your goal?

Your behavior is actually very predictable and I will tell you what, during my exMormon years I often got irritated by the behavior of Mormon apologists like Peterson and Midgely (spelling?) but I have to be honest your behavior right as I've seen on some ex-Mormon boards is worse than anything I've seen by any Mormon in my entire life. If I were to right now appeal to some ethic to attempt a civil discourse there would be nothing that can change your behavior on here (I don't think). You have no higher standard to abide by it seems. If you do let me know? Otherwise it's a waste of energy to dialogue with you.
I don't think anyone here cares if you're a Mormon or Ex-Mormon. No need to keep bringing it up.
"I am not an American ... In my view premarital sex should be illegal" - Ajax18
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Re: Is being a "Mormon" as a Man (and Married LDS), Better in the Midst of Wokeism & Secular Culture?

Post by drumdude »

K Graham wrote:
Wed Apr 06, 2022 1:40 am
drumdude wrote:
Thu Mar 31, 2022 6:56 pm


I've had to endure way too many testimony meetings, I've earned the right to mock all the men virtue signaling from the stand.

If you can see the problem with virtue signaling in "wokism" then you should be able to easily spot it coming from the men who cry. They're following the pattern they were indoctrinated into, just like "wokism."

In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.
The guy who baptized me once explained that women were more spiritual than men. When I asked what he meant, he used the fact that women tend to cry more and be more emotional. In Mormonism, emotional sensitivity = spirituality.
I most often see it used as a presentational tool. A way to demonstrate sincerity of testimony and belief.

Who believes the guy who says he had a spiritual witness and doesn't cry about it? :lol:

Also, it undercuts anyone's ability to question said spiritual witness, for fear of being insensitive. It's why I liken crying Mormon men to virtue signaling LGBT kids on Twitter. They're only doing it because everyone else is and they think it's required of them.
K Graham
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Re: Is being a "Mormon" as a Man (and Married LDS), Better in the Midst of Wokeism & Secular Culture?

Post by K Graham »

drumdude wrote:
Wed Apr 06, 2022 1:43 am
K Graham wrote:
Wed Apr 06, 2022 1:40 am


The guy who baptized me once explained that women were more spiritual than men. When I asked what he meant, he used the fact that women tend to cry more and be more emotional. In Mormonism, emotional sensitivity = spirituality.
I most often see it used as a presentational tool. A way to demonstrate sincerity of testimony and belief.

Who believes the guy who says he had a spiritual witness and doesn't cry about it? :lol:

Also, it undercuts anyone's ability to question said spiritual witness, for fear of being insensitive. It's why I liken crying Mormon men to virtue signaling LGBT kids on Twitter.
Yeah, there's that too. You're under pressure to move up the ladder of spirituality by coming up with a better BS testimony story than the last guy. On my mission we had a tone of Paul H. Dunn wannabes. I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard an RM tell a story about bullets bouncing off garments. Deep down you know it is BS, but how do you explain those crocodile tears?
"I am not an American ... In my view premarital sex should be illegal" - Ajax18
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Re: Is being a "Mormon" as a Man (and Married LDS), Better in the Midst of Wokeism & Secular Culture?

Post by MG 2.0 »

Free Ranger wrote:
Wed Apr 06, 2022 1:24 am
Kishkumen wrote:
Wed Apr 06, 2022 1:06 am


I haven’t found not observing the rules to be a big issue, when I was attending. So long as you are not taking the sacrament or seeking a temple recommend, you can do as you like and go to the meetings. So long as you are playing nice and not detracting from others’ experience, you should be OK. I tried to ignore silly stuff and focus on the good stuff. Plenty of good stuff is there. People who really annoy you in some ways can be very nice and admirable in other ways. There are always those people you won’t get along with or agree with, but don’t let them spoil it for you. Look for the good in it, and I think you’ll do great.

I do like the Givens and other so-called neo-apologists. I went to one of their meetings for doubters in Utah, and I liked their overall attitude and approach. The Church is an established club with its own rules, dues, and norms. Don’t rock the boat, and you can enjoy it quite a bit. And, you are right, no organization, no culture, no country is going to be perfect. We all give ourselves to something that will not live up to our highest ideals. I think many of us are frankly kind of unrealistic, and we end up throwing out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak. This is the kind of discussion zone where you will see a lot of continuing affirmation of doing just that.

But we all have our different tolerance levels, expectations, and histories. There are plenty of good people here, just as there are in the ward you are thinking of attending. The difference is that you can actually sing with, pray with, chat about spiritual things with those people in the ward. Sure there are some downsides to it, but there are real benefits as well. I have been here on this board for years, and it is a community I appreciate having, but it is no substitute for an in-person spiritual community.
Thanks for those encouraging words of open minded support. I agree with what you said!
I’ve enjoyed both of you and the civil conversation and points made by each. Thanks to you both. One of the more interesting threads I’ve ever come across on this board.

Two great minds!

Regards,
MG
Free Ranger
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Re: Is being a "Mormon" as a Man (and Married LDS), Better in the Midst of Wokeism & Secular Culture?

Post by Free Ranger »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Wed Apr 06, 2022 5:15 am
Free Ranger wrote:
Wed Apr 06, 2022 1:24 am


Thanks for those encouraging words of open minded support. I agree with what you said!
I’ve enjoyed both of you and the civil conversation and points made by each. Thanks to you both. One of the more interesting threads I’ve ever come across on this board.

Two great minds!

Regards,
MG
Thanks MG!
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