Is being a "Mormon" as a Man (and Married LDS), Better in the Midst of Wokeism & Secular Culture?

[Kishkumen]

In my opinion, the questioning of these things is what makes you a good progressive. I hope that a significant portion of the nature of progressivism is reframing, critiquing, adjusting, and questioning. If we don't do it to ourselves, we're doomed, because we're blindly walking off the edge of the Earth.

Thank you, Morley. You are as always very kind and decent. I agree that we must always be questioning, critiquing, and adjusting. At the same time, I am just not much of an ideological joiner, just as I am not much of a religious joiner. I will continue to cast my votes for people who will choose and do the better thing than the alternatives. I still feel like my hopes align very well with those of many progressives, but I am probably not going to hang out with them in the their in-group conversations or get heavily involved in party politics. Facebook is where I see a lot of progressives performing their activist identities, and it always leaves something of a bad taste in my mouth, no matter how much I may agree with the spirit of realizing a more just society.

[Kishkumen]

Kishkumen,


Thank you for sharing that about the cult of Academia. It fits with what I'm saying, that if human nature is human nature that is tribal and prone to cultish tendencies then what does it matter if one decides to be a New Order Mormon/ Cultural Mormon if they are already experiencing cultish and tribal behavior everywhere else; especially in places like Academia. In other words, I used to think that leaving my Mormon tribe I would enter into this pure and free world of free thought and scientific methodology and rationality. But that is not the case, especially now in 2022. As you put it, "I am thinking that there is a proliferation of "cults" that are hardly ever recognized as such."

Your experience in the Mormon Feminism venue is exactly what I'm talking about. It's no different than attending a Mormon Chapel and learning the correct lingo and not "rocking the boat" there. So it all comes down to what you value more, and the trade-offs you are willing to make. Obviously if your job is in Academia you have no choice. As for me if I were to go back to the Mormon church I would be making trade-offs. But as of right now my thinking is that I still value 90% of the content in Mormon scripture and hymns, etc. As 90% of it is a constant reminder to be kind and thoughtful (basic ethics), family values, and honoring your tribal ancestors and respecting tradition. What is missing in the secular cults is a complete and utter lack of ethics and kindness in many cases.

Your experiences are reminding me of Bret Weinstein and how he was treated in what he experienced at Evergreen. I just I don't understand how it is that more exmormons (like you) don't see that wokeism is just as cultish than the worst forms of Mormonism.

Yeah, I hear you. I used to go to Church every Sunday as a non-standard-believing, non-tithe-paying, non-temple-recommend holding Mormon. Funny thing is, I totally did not feel any social pressure at all. I had a studied obliviousness about the existing social pressure that I wielded like a shield and suit of armor every Sunday. Don't take the sacrament at all, and you can pretty much sail through meetings with very little trouble. No callings, no prayers. It is kinda sweet to be a free rider.

Then came the infamous November 5th Policy, and I sat down with my stake president to let him know exactly how not on board with all of that I was. In a nice way. I did not embarrass him. I did not say nasty things about the Church leaders. I just said, "Nope! Not for me!" That was what broke it for me. I loved the camaraderie with the old High Priests. So much about a ward is about that local community and meeting together to talk about being a decent person. I get what you are saying. I think Mormonism has lots of plusses to it. If you want those plusses, I support your desire to go back.

For me, however, there is probably not going to be any going back to the LDS Church. President Nelson was what did it for me. All this November 5th Policy crap, about it being a revelation, his phony stories, his "Satan rejoices" at hearing the word Mormon. Guy totally jumped the shark. Maybe when he dies, and if they reverse some more of his stupid-ass decisions, we'll see. But be my guest and go back now. It is really about what you feel comfortable with, and I don't think you need to be upset about Wokeism to go back.

I think what you are really talking about here is what I am talking about: find me a group with high-minded goals that doesn't have lots of problems. Among all of those, maybe the LDS Church is not the worst and could even be better than many.

[Marcus]

Oh, and how could I forget our dealings with Rosebud, KK, and jp? Being told many times that I am an awful person for criticizing them in their righteous crusade to stop John Dehlin was probably the final nail in the coffin.

Final nail in what coffin? I’m missing how this ties in with the OP’s position.

I am hoping that K doesn’t take that “awful person” stuff to heart, because the rosebud et. al. escapades in no way reflect true Mormon feminism. Otoh, going to a Mormon feminist venue and sharing an “honest opinion as a guy” is fraught with difficulties, especially if it’s the recent incident I read about, no matter what you believe.

In spite of these pockets of emotionally wraught discussions, I still don’t see any universal evidence such as the OP sees:

I can't turn on TV or watch movies now or go on social media without seeing men constantly being disparaged and maligned for being men. Instead of going after the minority of truly bad men, all men and all of masculinity is thrown under the bus. Men are under attack in this atmosphere. The Mormon Church has thus from my perspective become a lighthouse in the darkness. This is no longer about condemning bad man or making evil men good, it has become a feminist/Woke religion about attacking all men and replacing patriarchy with matriarchy, masculinity with universal femininity, so that we do indeed need an antidote to the Chaos.

“All men and all masculinity thrown under the bus” ?

You’re just listening to the crazies on the fringe, dude, which we’ve always had and always will. They are a minority, and don’t dictate intelligent thought and conversation on the matter.

[Kishkumen]

You make a good point, Marcus. Certainly I don't take KK, Rosebud, and jp to be representative members of the Mormon feminist movement. But at the time of my experience, KK was certainly very much a self-appointed leader, and she had a lot of clout. Over time that clout faded considerably because of her missteps. I did not by any means intend to denigrate Mormon feminism. But, at the same time, I learned the valuable lesson--valuable in my opinion--not to slide into a forum casually and expect a nice, open-minded reception.

I think there is a difference between supporting causes and being one of the insider activists. The latter environment I find to be trickier and less friendly.

[canpakes]

The way I see it, agnostic mysticism, like I said, is a worthy and respectable secular spirituality. But it is in my opinion largely a solo endeavor, …

(and)

It took me twenty years to realize that I enjoy being part of a tribe, …

I was wondering if you were going to pick up on that/speak to it, considering the difference between the two approaches (which I agree with you on), and since tribe has factored strongly into the conversation. : )

Also, for what it's worth, my SO and I are always joking about our aspie tendencies. And we’re both more comfortable out of crowds than in them, so that probably factors into why LDS social requirements aren’t as desirable to us as they may be to most others.

[Free Ranger]

Kishkumen,


Thank you for sharing that about the cult of Academia. It fits with what I'm saying, that if human nature is human nature that is tribal and prone to cultish tendencies then what does it matter if one decides to be a New Order Mormon/ Cultural Mormon if they are already experiencing cultish and tribal behavior everywhere else; especially in places like Academia. In other words, I used to think that leaving my Mormon tribe I would enter into this pure and free world of free thought and scientific methodology and rationality. But that is not the case, especially now in 2022. As you put it, "I am thinking that there is a proliferation of "cults" that are hardly ever recognized as such."

Your experience in the Mormon Feminism venue is exactly what I'm talking about. It's no different than attending a Mormon Chapel and learning the correct lingo and not "rocking the boat" there. So it all comes down to what you value more, and the trade-offs you are willing to make. Obviously if your job is in Academia you have no choice. As for me if I were to go back to the Mormon church I would be making trade-offs. But as of right now my thinking is that I still value 90% of the content in Mormon scripture and hymns, etc. As 90% of it is a constant reminder to be kind and thoughtful (basic ethics), family values, and honoring your tribal ancestors and respecting tradition. What is missing in the secular cults is a complete and utter lack of ethics and kindness in many cases.

Your experiences are reminding me of Bret Weinstein and how he was treated in what he experienced at Evergreen. I just I don't understand how it is that more exmormons (like you) don't see that wokeism is just as cultish than the worst forms of Mormonism.

Yeah, I hear you. I used to go to Church every Sunday as a non-standard-believing, non-tithe-paying, non-temple-recommend holding Mormon. Funny thing is, I totally did not feel any social pressure at all. I had a studied obliviousness about the existing social pressure that I wielded like a shield and suit of armor every Sunday. Don't take the sacrament at all, and you can pretty much sail through meetings with very little trouble. No callings, no prayers. It is kinda sweet to be a free rider.

Then came the infamous November 5th Policy, and I sat down with my stake president to let him know exactly how not on board with all of that I was. In a nice way. I did not embarrass him. I did not say nasty things about the Church leaders. I just said, "Nope! Not for me!" That was what broke it for me. I loved the camaraderie with the old High Priests. So much about a ward is about that local community and meeting together to talk about being a decent person. I get what you are saying. I think Mormonism has lots of plusses to it. If you want those plusses, I support your desire to go back.

For me, however, there is probably not going to be any going back to the LDS Church. President Nelson was what did it for me. All this November 5th Policy crap, about it being a revelation, his phony stories, his "Satan rejoices" at hearing the word Mormon. Guy totally jumped the shark. Maybe when he dies, and if they reverse some more of his stupid-ass decisions, we'll see. But be my guest and go back now. It is really about what you feel comfortable with, and I don't think you need to be upset about Wokeism to go back.

I think what you are really talking about here is what I am talking about: find me a group with high-minded goals that doesn't have lots of problems. Among all of those, maybe the LDS Church is not the worst and could even be better than many.

Thank you for sharing. Thanks for your respectful dialogue and support in whatever I end up choosing to do.

Your comments are exactly what I'm looking for to help me think about things. I did try experimenting with going to the Church three years ago before the pandemic, and I just remember being irritated at the scriptural literalism. But I have been rethinking that issue more and more. I think it's kind of necessary for a degree of supernaturalism and literalism among most of the members to keep the whole system functioning. I thought about how the Episcopal church, who are more highly educated and non-literal (on average than compared to other denominations), but does not have the same organizational/fraternal power that Mormonism has; as Shawn Mccraney explains in the video link I shared in this thread.

I've also been drinking coffee, which I started doing about 5 years ago and I think I've benefited from the energy boost. So I may never go back just because of coffee! LOL.

I am also annoyed at some of the culty stuff like not using the word Mormon. But the truth is there's always going to be something I don't like with any organization. I didn't like McConkey Mormonism but now there is Terryl Givens type Mormonism. And Nelson will be replaced by somebody else. It's all relative in my mind.

At the end of the day, if I want to be part of a group with high-minded goals, as you put it, I'm not finding better alternatives.

[Free Ranger]

The way I see it, agnostic mysticism, like I said, is a worthy and respectable secular spirituality. But it is in my opinion largely a solo endeavor, …

(and)

It took me twenty years to realize that I enjoy being part of a tribe, …

I was wondering if you were going to pick up on that/speak to it, considering the difference between the two approaches (which I agree with you on), and since tribe has factored strongly into the conversation. : )

Also, for what it's worth, my SO and I are always joking about our aspie tendencies. And we’re both more comfortable out of crowds than in them, so that probably factors into why LDS social requirements aren’t as desirable to us as they may be to most others.

Yeah, I totally get that. I resonate with what you said. I have been able to stay out of the Church quite comfortably for the last 15 years because I do have a strong introverted, introspective, internally proccessing mind. I'm definitely the kind of person who would rather stay in than go out. I can turn on my "extroverted persona" but then I need to decompress and be alone. My dad said that when I was a kid the thing I most often said was, "leave me alone." So I really can't take too much socializing but at the same time I enjoy it, it's weird. I would have to turn down a lot of callings, that don't fit my personality or nature; I would even maybe get burned out after only a month. And be like "Oh just leave me alone." LOL. I also resigned my membership about 15 years ago so I may get annoyed having to go through the process of going through a bunch of red tape, if there is any, in order to get re-baptized.

The funny thing is that one of the perks that I would look forward to as a Mormon would be going to the temple for the quiet, which I remember enjoying when I was active. But if I have to live an unquiet life just to have the quiet of the temple I may decide it's not worth it; and go back to seeking the quiet of libraries and bookstores as I've done the last 15 years.

It is only recently that I've been rethinking things and missing that social tribal aspect. Perhaps its just a phase.

This dialogue between everyone has been very helpful in processing things. Appreciate it.

Peace

[Gadianton]

FR,

Here were your comments about Euphoria:

In my opinion, we are going through a current schizophrenic insanity which is captured in season 2, episode 2 of the TV show Euphoria. First, the character Kat has a Dothraki sex dream where he basically takes her like an ancient Viking! See https://www.pedestrian.tv/entertainment ... e-2-recap/

Then, in the same episode they basically call third-wave feminism/wokeism a "self-help cult." See:

I think there's a misunderstanding here, FR. I asked for an example of a movie that was difficult to sit through because of woke feminist content, and first you respond with Batman because it was too much like Seven, which has nothing to do with woke feminism, and then you follow up in multiple paragraphs to chastise me for missing that you'd highlighted Euphoria in your original post. So I went back and read your comments about Euphoria, and it turns out that neither is Euphoria an example of a movie that was difficult for you to sit through because of its woke feminist content, rather the contrary, it calls out woke feminism, per your interpretation.

Thanks to me, however, I see that you did talk about another movie.

When I watch TV shows and movies now, even the good man is under attack. For example, in the 2021 show Sex/Life, this woman's husband is the ideal good man, good looking, masculine, protector and provider; yet she is presented as the hero in the story who cheats on him, lies to him, and in the final scenes it is her sitting down watching her kids on stage at a school play next to her husband (who is a good man); and her getting up and abandoning her family to go continue to cheat on her husband and then choose a high demand career over her kids. So I finished watching the series and I am like, this as what non-Mormon culture is offering me? Why the hell would I join that world?

First of all, a thank you to myself for helping you answer my question. Second, thanks to FR for having provided the content of what I was after even though he hadn't mentally indexed it very well.

Anyway, perfect, I think this is your own original work and it answers my question. What do I think of your analysis?

I have to really look back and squint, but I think you have a point. Although, I think it's a lot of forcing blood from a stone here.

First of all, I think you're taking the message too literally. If it is celebrating a toxic kind of feminism, then critics (aren't critics supposed to be liberal biased and supporting the woke revolution?) didn't get the message as it got a 26% on Rotten Tomatoes. However, there is one positive review that I'm sure you'd take as supporting your contention:

It's refreshing to watch a show where the female gaze is prioritized, and there's not a stigma around a woman craving sex and sexual attention from her partner.

Overall, you're kind of in a fork, because if this movie is a great example of woke feminist propaganda, it doesn't seem like there is much of a conspiracy as it only got a single positive review on that premise and was mostly panned otherwise. In other words, at best, you've established that there is woke feminism in some movies, but it hardly seems like a full-scale attack on men that would lead anyone to pay 10% to the Mormon Church for safety.

Just reading the synopsis, I'd say it's less "woke feminism" and more negative hero. I sometimes write here about connections I see between media and populist politics. Right-wing politics in my view is heavily influenced by negative heroes, and in my opinion, the king of all negative hero construction goes back to professional wrestling many years ago. Basically, in wrestling, good became bad and bad good. Hulk Hogan was out and Stone Cold Steve Austin was in. In television, during the 90s, The Wire was probably the first example of a serialized cop story flipping the script and making the cops as bad as the criminals. A slew of others followed (The Shield became my favorite). Walter White in Breaking Bad may be the apex of a negative hero, but there is still some good stuff like Ozark doing it. Although Ozark flips the script again because crime is what brings the family together rather than tears it apart. And of course, right-wingers have taken this a little too far, embracing negative heroes exemplified by Trump and Putin.

And so to my eye, this is less of a feminist plot, and more about riding a wave of success of a certain thematic style. There was bound to be some exploration of female negative heroes with so many males getting twisted up, wasn't there? I don't think they mean to glorify this woman's cheating anymore that Walter White was glorified for being a drug lord. But, I can accept the point that this does affectively happen, as praise of the character easily becomes an embrace of a character -- well, it got Trump elected, eh? So in that secondary sense, yes, this could be complimentary to women who trample their men. So I do see a minor point here. However: I also think that there is more chauvinism at work here than feminism. See, the absolute worst thing that a woman could ever possibly do is be unfaithful to a man and not keep the family going while the man goes looking for adventure. And so when tossing around ideas for creating a female negative hero, "Drug Lord? Pass; "Dirty but effective cop? pass"; "President of US with vices? pass"; "woman as cult leader? pass", "woman who cheats without regrets? Oh, that's good, let's do that! What else would a woman as a villain be capable of?" Even in Ozark, Marty's sin in the marriage was career ego and greed, Wendy's was cheating on Marty.

And so ultimately, this movie is really just an example of a twist on a popular theme and it's still more in male point of view territory than female, in my opinion.

[Free Ranger]

Gadianton,

I found your review of TV and movies quite fascinating. I loved the show Ozark. I especially liked that Bateman's character is not your stereotypical male hero character in that he is more of an introvert who uses his wits instead of his brawn. Spoiler alert: Her cheating was definitely uneventful in the storyline as her lover gets killed in a quite dramatic fashion (if memory serves me correctly) and so me as a viewer can move on to seeing if they can just survive the situation. A similar type of thing happens in the great movie The Last Boy Scout with Bruce Willis. Glad that you see that I have a bit of a point, and I'm not totally crazy, even if you disagree with my overall contentions.

[Free Ranger]

Final nail in what coffin? I’m missing how this ties in with the OP’s position.

I am hoping that K doesn’t take that “awful person” stuff to heart, because the rosebud et. al. escapades in no way reflect true Mormon feminism. Otoh, going to a Mormon feminist venue and sharing an “honest opinion as a guy” is fraught with difficulties, especially if it’s the recent incident I read about, no matter what you believe.

In spite of these pockets of emotionally wraught discussions, I still don’t see any universal evidence such as the OP sees:

I can't turn on TV or watch movies now or go on social media without seeing men constantly being disparaged and maligned for being men. Instead of going after the minority of truly bad men, all men and all of masculinity is thrown under the bus. Men are under attack in this atmosphere. The Mormon Church has thus from my perspective become a lighthouse in the darkness. This is no longer about condemning bad man or making evil men good, it has become a feminist/Woke religion about attacking all men and replacing patriarchy with matriarchy, masculinity with universal femininity, so that we do indeed need an antidote to the Chaos.

“All men and all masculinity thrown under the bus” ?

You’re just listening to the crazies on the fringe, dude, which we’ve always had and always will. They are a minority, and don’t dictate intelligent thought and conversation on the matter.

I am humble enough and secure enoug to admit, after reading my words several times, that I might have been a bit too hyperbolic. But it is a straw man for you to say, "I still don’t see any universal evidence such as the OP sees ..." when I never made any kind of claim that it was universal but used the words, "... without seeing men constantly being ..." If I had said I can't watch a movie or TV without constantly seeing a blond woman, that would not mean that I am saying all the movies have blond women in them. And a more generous reading of what I wrote would interpret me as saying that there is a constantly recurring theme (not universal but often) where "all men and all of masculinity is thrown under the bus."

I still stand by the examples I gave. Maybe I was engaging in too much of a sweeping generalization at worst, but nearly everything I said I think can be backed by my experiences. For example, when I said "... replacing patriarchy with matriarchy ..." I didn't make that comment for no reason. For I think it was in my subconscious when I wrote that for upon reflection I now recall the end of House of Cards: https://youtu.be/6uToXl7N4Ls
You can't tell me that that scene wasn't obviously orchestrated around a woke feminist agenda: symbolically replacing the perceived patriarchy and toxic masculinity with the saving matriarchy represented by an all-female cabinet. Just as in the scene atop the train in Terminator: Dark Fate, where they insinute the need to replace the male savior with a female savior; which possibly could be a mocking of the male savior of Christianity but I'm not sure as I can't find a way to re-examine the dialogue on the internet. Instead of, as I said several times, respecting a franchise such as the example I gave of He-Man and She-Ra, these wokests are not content unless they replace the male hero with a feminist hero; the equivalent of turning on a He-man cartoon and he is killed off or turned into a loser and She-Ra takes over his role and that time slot. So that I'm sitting there with my fruit loops in my He-Man pajamas as a kid and my mom's gotta explain to me the evilness of the patriarchy.

In this thread I also provided links to Richard Dreyfuss ( https://youtu.be/VfEe4M2GmzE ) and Quentin Tarantino ( https://youtu.be/j8aVT8WSHsc ) who feel the same way I do. They live and work in Hollywood so I think their opinion counts, no?