There is only empirical evidence for God, whether it's fine-tuning or anything else, if God decided to allow the evidence to exist. Brigham Young (and lots of Christians I think) believed that Satan hid the dinosaur bones in the earth to trick us. But he did that under God's watch. God could make it look like life is an accident that happens all the time. He could have created life on Mars with a fake fossil record that originates in totally different ways than life on earth. He could have been straight with us, covered his tracks, or thrown us off the scent in whatever way he imagines for his higher purpose.
God would have played a pretty good hoax for us late-arrivers if he set it all up to mislead us after our scientific revolution hit. "I'll let all these people for thousands of years reasonably think that magic happens and I'm behind it....but once we get to the latter days, when them Mormons are out and about, I'll make it near impossible for the reasonable among them to find any reason for me. Can't wait to tell them losers how much I hated them for thinking they could learn stuff."
But apparently he's a wonderful character who loves those who worship him the correct way.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
There is only empirical evidence for God, whether it's fine-tuning or anything else, if God decided to allow the evidence to exist. Brigham Young (and lots of Christians I think) believed that Satan hid the dinosaur bones in the earth to trick us. But he did that under God's watch. God could make it look like life is an accident that happens all the time. He could have created life on Mars with a fake fossil record that originates in totally different ways than life on earth. He could have been straight with us, covered his tracks, or thrown us off the scent in whatever way he imagines for his higher purpose.
God would have played a pretty good hoax for us late-arrivers if he set it all up to mislead us after our scientific revolution hit. "I'll let all these people for thousands of years reasonably think that magic happens and I'm behind it....but once we get to the latter days, when them Mormons are out and about, I'll make it near impossible for the reasonable among them to find any reason for me. Can't wait to tell them losers how much I hated them for thinking they could learn stuff."
But apparently he's a wonderful character who loves those who worship him the correct way.
I have heard more than a couple of bad and corrupting ideas from believers. The devil hiding dinosaur bones is a disgusting idea. I am not sure what Gadianton is on about with the mars thoughts. Perhaps he is saying once you propose devil making dinosaur bones than most anything goes. A person might even believe that Trump is here to save Christianity.
Dasterdly stem, I have heard a number of ugly images of god created by nonbelievers. I think you have made a collection of speculations and then proposed that these speculations show god to be a jerk. If your speculations were to be correct then I could see the jerk image.
God would have played a pretty good hoax for us late-arrivers if he set it all up to mislead us after our scientific revolution hit. "I'll let all these people for thousands of years reasonably think that magic happens and I'm behind it....but once we get to the latter days, when them Mormons are out and about, I'll make it near impossible for the reasonable among them to find any reason for me. Can't wait to tell them losers how much I hated them for thinking they could learn stuff."
But apparently he's a wonderful character who loves those who worship him the correct way.
I have heard more than a couple of bad and corrupting ideas from believers. The devil hiding dinosaur bones is a disgusting idea. I am not sure what Gadianton is on about with the mars thoughts. Perhaps he is saying once you propose devil making dinosaur bones than most anything goes. A person might even believe that Trump is here to save Christianity.
Dasterdly stem, I have heard a number of ugly images of god created by nonbelievers. I think you have made a collection of speculations and then proposed that these speculations show god to be a jerk. If your speculations were to be correct then I could see the jerk image.
The sheer tapestry of Mormonism is enough to make any skeptic hold pause. A void in his established true word for 1830 years is solved by a visiting long dead Native American. This personage gives information where a buried record of an ancient culture can be found. This record can only be seen by a pre-ordained person the rest of human kind must imagine their validity. This writing can't be studied and can't be independently verified outside of Mormonism, nor does its vestiges appear in any known modern writings. After the Book of Mormon is finished the plates are taken back.
Now that the church is established and correct principles can be instituted one of the first orders of business is to implement polygamy. Of all the horrors in the 19th century that needed addressing this is paramount? Wait it gets better. The book of Abraham introduces bizarre views on the cosmos not to mention the disastrous interpretation of the papyrus. If this is how a Mormon god works it is sheer insanity. Especially if it is true.
We don't know anything about why the various natural constants are what they are, so we can't say anything about whether they are arbitrary decisions that have to have been made very carefully or whether they are as inevitable as the digits of pi. We don't know anything about what radically different kinds of universe from ours might also have been very interesting and full of phenomena comparable to intelligent life even if radically different. So for me the bottom line is just a big grain of salt.
Same here. It feels fairly obvious we'd have no way to know whether there is some intentional fine tuning that took place.
Do we even know what the fundamental natural "constants" are? We have identified a number of physical parameters that we can (in our minds and in our computers) play about with, and predict effects from that play, but I don't believe that we:
have identified all relevant parameters, or
found the most basic and fundamental parameters
For all we know at this point, we are barely scratching the surface.
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I have heard more than a couple of bad and corrupting ideas from believers. The devil hiding dinosaur bones is a disgusting idea. I am not sure what Gadianton is on about with the mars thoughts. Perhaps he is saying once you propose devil making dinosaur bones than most anything goes. A person might even believe that Trump is here to save Christianity.
Dasterdly stem, I have heard a number of ugly images of god created by nonbelievers. I think you have made a collection of speculations and then proposed that these speculations show god to be a jerk. If your speculations were to be correct then I could see the jerk image.
The sheer tapestry of Mormonism is enough to make any skeptic hold pause. A void in his established true word for 1830 years is solved by a visiting long dead Native American. This personage gives information where a buried record of an ancient culture can be found. This record can only be seen by a pre-ordained person the rest of human kind must imagine their validity. This writing can't be studied and can't be independently verified outside of Mormonism, nor does its vestiges appear in any known modern writings. After the Book of Mormon is finished the plates are taken back.
Now that the church is established and correct principles can be instituted one of the first orders of business is to implement polygamy. Of all the horrors in the 19th century that needed addressing this is paramount? Wait it gets better. The book of Abraham introduces bizarre views on the cosmos not to mention the disastrous interpretation of the papyrus. If this is how a Mormon god works it is sheer insanity. Especially if it is true.
Rivendale, I can see your point, (and as far as I can see the Book of Abraham also introduces the background for the ban on Africans holding priesthood as well as those bizarre cosmos ideas)
There is the possibility of course that the Mormon story has significant fiction and God is not actually following this story.
I find the Fine Tuning Argument worthless. The probability statistics are based on nothing but conjecture. No one has shown that the "constants" can be anything other than what they are, and no one can produce a range of values that isn't infinite instead of probability sum of 1 if they were to be demonstrated as tunable.
I have heard more than a couple of bad and corrupting ideas from believers. The devil hiding dinosaur bones is a disgusting idea. I am not sure what Gadianton is on about with the mars thoughts. Perhaps he is saying once you propose devil making dinosaur bones than most anything goes. A person might even believe that Trump is here to save Christianity.
Dasterdly stem, I have heard a number of ugly images of god created by nonbelievers. I think you have made a collection of speculations and then proposed that these speculations show god to be a jerk. If your speculations were to be correct then I could see the jerk image.
Thanks huckelberry. I appreciate your thoughts. I don't mean to paint up ugly images per se...I just try to go with what believers tell me. And if I"m wrong I'm wrong and would love to be corrected.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
I have heard more than a couple of bad and corrupting ideas from believers. The devil hiding dinosaur bones is a disgusting idea. I am not sure what Gadianton is on about with the mars thoughts. Perhaps he is saying once you propose devil making dinosaur bones than most anything goes. A person might even believe that Trump is here to save Christianity.
Dasterdly stem, I have heard a number of ugly images of god created by nonbelievers. I think you have made a collection of speculations and then proposed that these speculations show god to be a jerk. If your speculations were to be correct then I could see the jerk image.
The sheer tapestry of Mormonism is enough to make any skeptic hold pause. A void in his established true word for 1830 years is solved by a visiting long dead Native American. This personage gives information where a buried record of an ancient culture can be found. This record can only be seen by a pre-ordained person the rest of human kind must imagine their validity. This writing can't be studied and can't be independently verified outside of Mormonism, nor does its vestiges appear in any known modern writings. After the Book of Mormon is finished the plates are taken back.
Now that the church is established and correct principles can be instituted one of the first orders of business is to implement polygamy. Of all the horrors in the 19th century that needed addressing this is paramount? Wait it gets better. The book of Abraham introduces bizarre views on the cosmos not to mention the disastrous interpretation of the papyrus. If this is how a Mormon god works it is sheer insanity. Especially if it is true.
Fine tuning.
Look at the results. If LDS history and moved one way or the other along the way, (no polygamy, no Book of Abraham, no ‘Negro Question’, etc.) what would have been the result? We don’t know, right?
What we do know is what we see NOW. And this IS the result of the so called ‘messy’ history. Four fold mission of the church. Doing fairly well. The parameters seem to meet certain expectations, functions, and characteristics that many see as being a result of God’s intervention in the affairs of mankind.
