Church membership numbers not good.

[huckelberry]

There has been a concerted propaganda program to cast policies favored by liberals as attacks on religious liberty.

Allowing gay marriage recognized by the government is a destruction of the liberty of the conservative religious powers to dictate who can marry whom.

A perversion of the word and idea of liberty worthy of 1984

[doubtingthomas]

There has been a concerted propaganda program to cast policies favored by liberals as attacks on religious liberty.

Allowing gay marriage recognized by the government is a destruction of the liberty of the conservative religious powers to dictate who can marry whom.

Conservatives don't value liberty at all.

[dastardly stem]

I’m sure speculation is fun. We can, however, look at individual instances where temples are being built in outlying areas of the church to see what brings temples into given geographical areas.

We can surely assume the Church is telling the truth here, or we can, like we do in critical text studies look for evidence to confirm the claims of the Church. 2 stakes, 15,000 members over a the distance of 224,000 square miles is not indicative of a location where the Church has "strong roots". And do we know the schedule of the Nairobi temple? I looked. It's under construction. It was announced 5 years ago and construction began a few months back (Sept 2021). I don't know if the Church reports temple activity, but it'll be interesting if we had hard data rather than a faith promoting comment from the Church?

I don't think you are doing much more than speculating like myself on this.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has announced it will break ground for a temple in Nairobi, Kenya to serve its growing followers in the region.

The groundbreaking ceremony for the Nairobi temple is scheduled for September 11th, 2021 with officials at the US-based church indicating that attendance will be by invitation only.

A site location and exterior rendering for the Nairobi temple which will be East Africa and eight in the continent have yet to be released. The September 11th event in the Kenyan capital will be presided over by Elder Joseph W. Sitati, president of the Africa Central Area and native of Kenya.

The construction of a temple — a setting for key Mormon blessings allowed nowhere else — signifies the strong roots the Salt Lake City headquartered church has established in Kenya. About 540,000 Mormons live in Africa and 15,000 in Kenya, making for two stakes and 54 congregations in the country.

Mormon missionaries first arrived in Kenya in the 1980s but the religion was shunned as a cult and anti-Christian. The faith group has since gained acceptance and registered with the Kenyan government in 1993.

https://www.mwakilishi.com/article/keny ... in-nairobi

In this case it had to do with growth and need. This may not be uncommon.

No. I do get the desire to treat canned statements about temples from the Church as specific, honest and representative in each case...but I don't see any reason to do that. It's a faith promoting statement, MG. We are speculating too much if we think temple growth means the Church's membership is growing at a similar rate. I don't find your logic here conclusive, or all that helpful.

Let's find out how many of the 15,000 saints in Kenya consider themselves Mormons, have temple recommends and will, when its complete, regularly attend the temple.

I do have another speculation related here. The Church builds temples in hopes to increase activity.

Two years ago I made some graphs, charts and tables comparing each country by region. In Africa I estimated activity is generally fairly high compared to the rest of the world. Kenya I estimated to be about 27 percent, which is high. I estimated that rate for both 2020 and 2015. The rate stayed the same while the membership in Kenya grew 2,000 people (from 12,000 to 14,000, and we have another 1,000 added since). If Kenya stayed true, and if my assumptions in determining activity, which I regard as on the high end of an estimate, that'd put Kenya at about 4,000 active members. Assuming quite a number of these members will not have easy access to the temple, as in, say, monthly, we may see the temple being used quite sparingly. If so, it doesn't seem true at all that the Church has strong roots here. But the data seem to fit a notion that the Church is building temples to enhance activity and to take advantage of it's financial successes (afterall it does seem the Church builds temples not as a sacrifice financially but as extra funds are made available--the Church doesn't lose money to build a temple).

Link to data on Africa:
https://ibb.co/Y2LQb3X

[MG 2.0]

…by religious liberty you mean your right to dictate to others and have those others just fallow along.

Well, not quite. Let’s let the experts weigh in:

Religion and morality are the props of duty, the indispensable supports of the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, and the great pillars of human happiness. They aid good government by teaching men their moral obligations and creating the conditions for decent politics. And while there might be particular individuals whose morality does not depend on religion, Washington argues, this is not the case for the nation as a whole: 'And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion.'

In the end, while it is often thought that religion and politics must be discussed as if they are radically separate spheres, the Founders' conception of religious liberty was almost exactly the opposite. It actually requires the moralization of politics, which includes--and requires--the continuing influence of religion in public life.

The health of liberty depends on the principles, standards, and morals common to all religions. By acknowledging the realm in which reason and faith agree and can cooperate about morality and politics, religious liberty unites civic morality and the moral teachings of religion, thereby establishing common standards to guide private and public life. By recognizing the need for public morality and the prominent role that religion plays in nurturing morality, the Founders invite churches to cooperate at the political level in sustaining the moral consensus underlying their theological differences. It is by separating sectarian conflict from the political process and then strengthening this moral consensus that religious liberty makes self-government possible.

America does not depend on a shared theology, but it does depend on a shared morality. In his First Inaugural Address, the first president said that 'there exists in the economy and course of nature, an indissoluble union between virtue and happiness' and that no nation can prosper that 'disregards the external rules of order and right, which Heaven itself has ordained.' Jefferson put it more succinctly: The people, who are the source of all lawful authority, 'are inherently independent of all but the moral law.'

What the separation of church and state does, then, is free religion--in the form of morality and the moral teachings of religion--to exercise an unprecedented influence over private and public opinion by shaping mores, cultivating virtues, and, in general, providing an independent source of moral reasoning and authority. At the same time, religious liberty reminds man to pursue his transcendent duties and frees religion to pursue its divine mission among men. Alexis de Tocqueville observed that even though religion 'never intervenes directly in the government of American society,' it determines the 'habits of the heart' and is 'the first of their political institutions.'

Today, it is increasingly evident that there is a close connection between America's deepest social ills and the weakening of religious participation and the abandonment of traditional moral norms taught by religion. Rebuilding a post-welfare state society demands the return of religion and faith-based institutions to their central role in the nation's civic and public life. To attain this, Americans must abandon the interpretation, maintained by the Supreme Court, that religion is in conflict with freedom and that any 'endorsement' of religion creates an unconstitutional religious establishment. That interpretation prevents government from recognizing or advancing religious faith generally.

At the same time, sectarian politics is not the way to restore and strengthen America's religious heritage. A better course is to return to the more reasonable, historically accurate, and faith-friendly view of religious liberty that upholds religion and morality as indispensable supports of good habits, the firmest props of the duties of citizens, and the great pillars of human happiness.

https://www.heritage.org/political-proc ... us-liberty

I think in any discussion on religious liberty the Founding Fathers ought to be looked to for guidance.

Would I be mistaken in saying that, generally speaking, the small ‘woke’ segment of society might disagree?

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

But the data seem to fit a notion that the Church is building temples to enhance activity…

I think that is true.

What matters, at the end of the day, is the reason/motivation for this goal which the church implements at great cost throughout the world. Is it to provide an opportunity for more of God’s children to enter in on the covenant path and live their lives accordingly or is it just a scheme ultimately having to do with money grubbing, power, and advantage?

I choose the former, you choose some variation of the latter.

Which makes sense. You don’t believe there is a God to make covenants with in the first place.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

There has been a concerted propaganda program to cast policies favored by liberals as attacks on religious liberty.

Allowing gay marriage recognized by the government is a destruction of the liberty of the conservative religious powers to dictate who can marry whom.

Conservatives don't value liberty at all.

Oh my. This is what we’re up against?

Folks, this has been fun. Again, it’s time for me to take another break. I’m flying back East tomorrow to help my son and his wife for a couple weeks in setting up some rental properties.

Until later.

Take care.

Regards,
MG

[dastardly stem]

I think that is true.

What matters, at the end of the day, is the reason/motivation for this goal which the church implements at great cost throughout the world. Is it to provide an opportunity for more of God’s children to enter in on the covenant path and live their lives accordingly or is it just a scheme ultimately having to do with money grubbing, power, and advantage?

I choose the former, you choose some variation of the latter.

Which makes sense. You don’t believe there is a God to make covenants with in the first place.

Regards,
MG

We can certainly spin motivation any way we like. I still maintain the Church woulnd't build temples if it took financial sacrifice. They only build temples when there are extra funds that won't hit their bottom line. And, surely if they can increase activity they can increase making money. You can say, the Church wouldn't do that, and thinking the Church tries to get money out of the poor, but the data belies your complaint. Kenya happens to be the very place President Nelson showed up and commanded they pay tithing:

We preach tithing to the poor people of the world because the poor people of the world have had cycles of poverty, generation after generation," he said. "That same poverty continues from one generation to another, until people pay their tithing.

Get people out of poverty by having them pay a ridiculously rich conglomerate corporation money? Ok. I mean I know you're behind the guy, but the facts tell the story, MG.

[doubtingthomas]

I’m flying back East tomorrow to help my son and his wife for a couple weeks in setting up some rental properties.

Just be very careful, never be alone with her for a second. Avoid temptation at all cost.

Remember, sin begins in your mind. Matthew 5:28

[Moksha]

Won't most of the new constructions be mini-Temples?

[Morley]

As I said earlier, jeremiad.

No, I don’t think so. Free expression of ideas. You would prefer that I am ‘canceled’.

Regards,
MG

Commenting that your prose fits a particular literary form is cancelation? Again, you've got to be kidding. And again, it's not clear that you understand what "canceled" means.