Renlund attempts to slam the door shut on Heavenly Mother

[IHAQ]

Very little has been revealed about Mother in Heaven, but what we do know is summarized in a gospel topic found in our Gospel Library application.9 Once you have read what is there, you will know everything that I know about the subject. I wish I knew more. You too may still have questions and want to find more answers. Seeking greater understanding is an important part of our spiritual development, but please be cautious. Reason cannot replace revelation.

Speculation will not lead to greater spiritual knowledge, but it can lead us to deception or divert our focus from what has been revealed.10 For example, the Savior taught His disciples, “Always pray unto the Father in my name.”11 We follow this pattern and direct our worship to our Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ and do not pray to Heavenly Mother.12

Ever since God appointed prophets, they have been authorized to speak on His behalf. But they do not pronounce doctrines fabricated “of [their] own mind”13 or teach what has not been revealed. Consider the words of the Old Testament prophet Balaam, who was offered a bribe to curse the Israelites to benefit Moab. Balaam said, “If [the king of Moab] would give me his house full of silver and gold, I cannot go beyond the word of the Lord my God, to do less or more.”14 Latter-day prophets are similarly constrained. Demanding revelation from God is both arrogant and unproductive. Instead, we wait on the Lord and His timetable to reveal His truths through the means that He has established.

https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... d?lang=eng

In other words, read the gospel topic essay and shut up. Renlund reinforces the point in his closing paragraph…

Our Heavenly Father wants you to become His heir and receive all that He has.40 He cannot offer you more. He cannot promise you more. He loves you more than you know and wants you to be happy in this life and in the life to come. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... d?lang=eng

In summary, get Heavenly Mothers name, out your <adjective> mouth…<slap>

[Philo Sofee]

So because he doesn't know much (truly no surprise), no one else ought to either, and since God hasn't revealed much to his (Renlund's) puny mind, no one else can know much past his limited intelligence on the subject. Got it. More proof that one need not bother turning to Mormonism for their knowledge, there is an entire world of fascinating, delightful, spiritually uplifting tons of information on Heavenly Mom outside the severely limited confines of Patriarchally crippling Mormonism. It is such a joy to find her! She has constantly been revealed throughout history when one knows where to find her. Mormonism is obviously lost about it all. I think it is amazing it thinks it is the only place God will ever show up, and she will not share herself with anyone else at all nowhere except within the confines of Mormonism. Hilarious!

[MsJack]

I am obviously not a believer in what Mormons call Heavenly Mother; I am a believer in a divine feminine in other ways. But I confess I am somewhat puzzled by MoFem / ProgMo frustration on the subject.

Either you think men like Elder Renlund are prophets who speak for God, or you don't. If they are prophets who speak for God, then why do you think you know better than they do when they say God has nothing further to reveal for the time being about HM?

If you think they are not prophets (or are long-term, consistently flawed prophets), then why trust them with anything else related to revelation or salvation?

More importantly, if you think HM is real, is she not capable of revealing herself to her servants the prophets, or otherwise manifesting herself to the world?

It seems to me like, no matter how you slice it, either she isn't real or she is willfully silent, neither of which works well with Mormon feminism.

To me, the problem is obvious. Mormon prophets do not have a special connection to God. Mormon theology logically points to the existence of at least one HM, but Mormons arguably haven't had a theologically creative prophet since Joseph Smith, who died before he could expound further on HM (if indeed he ever said anything about her at all, which is debatable). Modern LDS leaders are not going to generate more "revelation" about HM because they lack the spark of imagination and theological creativity Smith had.

This will sound harsh, but I mean it respectfully: the well for theological innovation and expansion in modern-day Mormonism does not run deep, at least not as far as the leaders are concerned, and deep down, men like Elder Renlund know it.

All of the ProgMo / MoFem wishcasting in the world is unlikely to change that.

I feel for my ProgMo / MoFem friends, but I also can't help but feel that their task is Sisyphean.

[Kishkumen]

I agree with MsJack on multiple fronts here.

Joseph Smith was Mormonism's prophet. The rest of its leaders have primarily been priesthood leaders. It is too bad that they style themselves as prophets and elevate what they do to the unrealistic and exaggerated status of prophetic leadership because it is obviously not reflected in what they do.

Secondly, Mormon theology is now a mess, and I don't think that is entirely the fault of Joseph Smith. Much damage was done by Brigham Young and subsequent leaders of the LDS Church. The Divine Feminine, ongoing research will show, is absolutely at the foundation of Mormonism, but it is not the kind of Heavenly Mother theology that has come down through Brighamite LDSism.

This situation is unlikely to be completely repaired because the LDS Church has saddled itself with Brigham Young and they won't let go of him. The leadership structure they have is built on that foundation, as is LDS theology.

Restoration theology is much more expansive and amenable to reconciliation with broader Christian theology. Brigham Young's legacy leaves the LDS Church in the bind of trying to hold onto BY's divine anthropology, on the one hand, and Christian theology, on the other. The two are difficult if not impossible to reconcile.

Heavenly Mother is in limbo.

[consiglieri]

Heavenly Mother is at one and the same time essential to the patriarchal narrative and a threat to the same narrative.

She is a tiger the patriarchy strives to keep in check by holding her tail.

But as Baloo observed, “There’s teeth in the other end.”

[Free Ranger]

This is a very interesting topic,

About five years ago I went to all the churches in my area. I had been reading a lot of liberal Christians like Rob Bell and David Bentley Hart and Marcus Borg, and so I was like maybe I will try being a non-Mormon Christian. I had tried being a non-Mormon Christian about 10 years prior but decided to try it again. Attending these churches and talking with the members and ministers/pastors, felt like something was just missing. By analogy, I felt like a person whose parents died and they have a choice of foster parents. One of the foster parents is a mother and father and the other household is a single guy and his bachelor son. That is what it felt like at these churches, God is a single dad with Jesus and no Female Divine representation at all. So when I turn from that and over the last few years have been reading the newest Mormon material, I see it frequently refers to Heavenly Parents. I see that as a rather radical emphasis on the Divine Feminine. At a Deseret bookstore I ran across this image: https://religionnews.com/wp-content/upl ... milies.png
You won't find this kind of art in an Evangelical Protestant bookstore!

So given the fact that the Mormon leadership wants to promote itself as a "Christian religion" and most Christians deny the Divine Feminine, I think they're in a rock and a hard place, or however that saying goes. I mean if they were to go full-on with the Heavenly Mother stuff, going so far to openly worship her or something like that, they would be accused of being pagan and having more in common with Wicca than "traditional/Constantinian" Christianity. So putting myself in their shoes, I have to also think of how they might be thinking of it strategically and practically.

As Kishkumen put it, they also lack the creative innovation that Joseph Smith exercised. So what the church is doing with this issue is exactly what I would expect them to do. But I do see some interesting progress I have not seen since I resigned about 15 years ago. For not only is there the image of a father and mother deity (in the image linked above), but I ran across this image: https://i0.wp.com/www.the-exponent.com/ ... ealing.jpg
by active LDS member, Anthony Sweat, a BYU professor. I just listened to his talk on his paintings and his trying to present a more honest Mormon history here: https://youtu.be/bA7pYjlxfEo

So from my perspective, after resigning around 2007 and being out of the church all this time, I see a great amount of progress. Whether it's enough progress I think will depend on one's politics and subjectivity.

Personally, when I have experimented with prayer a few times the last couple of years after being mostly atheist for the last 20 years, I found that praying to Heavenly Parents in my few experiments, to be "spiritually" satisfying. But I feel no need "to rock the boat" if I ever do go back to the LDS Church (or just decide to be an agnostic mystic as canpakes and I discussed in a recent thread). For myself, I feel like there is enough material like the paintings linked above and the constant referencing, in official Church documents, to Heavenly parents, and the Doctrine and Covenants 132 clearly referring to women as gods, that I find it theologically goodenough personally. And if the Church ever did move toward allowing prayer to Heavenly Mother, and mentioning her more, and some creative and innovative leader ever created some new doctrine or revelation, that would be cool too.

[drumdude]

It’s interesting how gender is such a vital unavoidable consequence of the temple ceremony and plan of salvation… but heavenly mother is not.


It’s almost like discussing heavenly mother doesn’t further their political agenda but talking about eternal gender does.

[Free Ranger]

.

[Free Ranger]

It’s interesting how gender is such a vital unavoidable consequence of the temple ceremony and plan of salvation… but heavenly mother is not.


It’s almost like discussing heavenly mother doesn’t further their political agenda but talking about eternal gender does.

I'm kind of curious, what would you expect or want them to do regarding Heavenly Mother if their views aligned more with your political views? As I mentioned in my post above, they are already doing things that are radically opposed to mainstream Christianity. I believe there's even hymns that mention the divine feminine, and the other sources I mentioned. So what would you want them to do more?

[MG 2.0]

Very little has been revealed about Mother in Heaven, but what we do know is summarized in a gospel topic found in our Gospel Library application.9 Once you have read what is there, you will know everything that I know about the subject. I wish I knew more. You too may still have questions and want to find more answers. Seeking greater understanding is an important part of our spiritual development, but please be cautious. Reason cannot replace revelation.

Speculation will not lead to greater spiritual knowledge, but it can lead us to deception or divert our focus from what has been revealed.10 For example, the Savior taught His disciples, “Always pray unto the Father in my name.”11 We follow this pattern and direct our worship to our Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ and do not pray to Heavenly Mother.12

Ever since God appointed prophets, they have been authorized to speak on His behalf. But they do not pronounce doctrines fabricated “of [their] own mind”13 or teach what has not been revealed. Consider the words of the Old Testament prophet Balaam, who was offered a bribe to curse the Israelites to benefit Moab. Balaam said, “If [the king of Moab] would give me his house full of silver and gold, I cannot go beyond the word of the Lord my God, to do less or more.”14 Latter-day prophets are similarly constrained. Demanding revelation from God is both arrogant and unproductive. Instead, we wait on the Lord and His timetable to reveal His truths through the means that He has established.

https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... d?lang=eng

In other words, read the gospel topic essay and shut up. Renlund reinforces the point in his closing paragraph…

Our Heavenly Father wants you to become His heir and receive all that He has.40 He cannot offer you more. He cannot promise you more. He loves you more than you know and wants you to be happy in this life and in the life to come. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... d?lang=eng

In summary, get Heavenly Mothers name, out your <adjective> mouth…<slap>

Coming from someone that doesn’t believe we have a Heavenly Father, that’s rich. What are you so concerned about?

One thing Elder Renlund said bears repeating:

Reason cannot replace revelation.

Speculation will not lead to greater spiritual knowledge, but it can lead us to deception or divert our focus from what has been revealed.

Question. Do you believe that we have a Heavenly Mother?

Regards,
MG