Renlund attempts to slam the door shut on Heavenly Mother

[Free Ranger]

Yeah, this is the kind of negative energy I'd rather not absorb. Yes I can handle it, sure, but I have the right to choose not to absorb it. I already have to absorb negative energy from contentious disagreeable people in the real world here and there, at work, on the street, in traffic, etc. I don't need to go on here and absorb more of it. Some people get off on it. I'm one of those people who don't.

So again, I am choosing to refrain from further dialogue with you. By the way, you're being grossly unfair about how I have expressed my Viking ancestry, especially given how I have emphasized in this thread that my ancestors converted to Christianity, and I spoke about that positively in this thread. This is another reason why I find it on unfruitful to dialogue with you.

And on another note, I'd rather not hijack the thread going back and forth with you when the audience may want to actually discuss heavenly mother.

Peace

From the person who posted an OP chock full of “grossly unfair” sexist tropes and more “negative energy” and ugly gender bias than we’ve seen here in quite a while. You don’t get off upon it? Really? Morley’s response was incredibly mild, but now you’re shunning them. : D

Anyway, back to the topic…..

Respectfully, you only think I'm sexist because you have an extreme point-of-view on the extreme far Left. My head is still spinning from when you said in the other thread:

Marcus:
... but I have no goal of changing your mind.

… nope, again no goal to change you. You are what you are.
…

No, it’s people like you who are sexist. Luckily, many are getting past that. Join us!!

So which is it? I'm biologically determined and you don't want to change me or I have supernatural free will and you want me to join your secular religion of Wokeism?

How is this mindset and behavior not worse than the worst manifestations of Mormon culture?

Next I predict that several of you will start dogpiling on me (a single individual). Like I have said in other posts, I have dealt with contentious disagreeable personalities in Mormon culture as well, but at least in LDS culture there is a Shared Standard to hold people accountable and friendlier. I have never experienced this much of negative energy on a Mormon board or anywhere else among LDS. So why would I join you?

[Doctor Steuss]

I doubt if Christianity had much to do with eradicating pedophilia. Indeed, there's plenty of evidence that some early Christian priests and monks seemed to embrace the practice.

I'm curious as to why Pauline Christianity gets the credit when the Mishnah speaks against it.

I don't know many reasons to believe that the oral aspects of Kiddushin and Niddah couldn't have been present pre-Paul. Then again, they aren't as fun to read though...






[[This space reserved for Y'vamos misinterpretation]]

[huckelberry]

So which is it? I'm biologically determined and you don't want to change me or I have supernatural free will and you want me to join your secular religion of Wokeism?

How is this mindset and behavior not worse than the worst manifestations of Mormon culture?

..... I have never experienced this much of negative energy on a Mormon board or anywhere else among LDS. So why would I join you?

free ranger, I think you have some interesting observations some I agree with and others I do not much.

I think your will is free enough to make some decisions and come to new understandings whether it is all natural or if it has a supernatural dimension.

I find your comments about a secular religion of wokeism about as friendly as a poke in the eye with a stick.

Just to identify myself, I am a Christian believer who is roughly neo orthodox, can like Borg and not so much Spong. I think valuable spiritual understanding and encouragement can be found in a wide variety of human cult and myth.

[Marcus]

From the person who posted an OP chock full of “grossly unfair” sexist tropes and more “negative energy” and ugly gender bias than we’ve seen here in quite a while. You don’t get off upon it? Really? Morley’s response was incredibly mild, but now you’re shunning them. : D

Anyway, back to the topic…..

Respectfully, you only think I'm sexist because you have an extreme point-of-view on the extreme far Left.

Respectfully, No. I think you’re sexist because you write things like this

This is no longer about condemning bad man or making evil men good, it has become a feminist/Woke religion about attacking all men and replacing patriarchy with matriarchy, masculinity with universal femininity, so that we do indeed need an antidote to the Chaos.

And this

I have a Mormon uncle who ruled the roost as a devout Mormon and now that his wife has a debilitating illness, it is his masculine power and money that is capable of taking care of her and giving her healing luxuries that she would not have had if she was a single woman and relying on the state to take care of her. In other words, yes she allegedly "sacrificed being a Wokeist feminist,"

And this

I think that's what I like about Mormonism most of all now, the fact that it is patriarchal. Because you know what happens when you have "too many roosters," you have chaos. You can't have both the man and the woman in a small space taking on the role of the rooster,

Etc, etc, etc.

My head is still spinning from when you said in the other thread:

Marcus:
... but I have no goal of changing your mind.
… nope, again no goal to change you. You are what you are.
…
No, it’s people like you who are sexist. Luckily, many are getting past that. Join us!!

So which is it? I'm biologically determined and you don't want to change me or I have supernatural free will and you want me to join your secular religion of Wokeism?

the “join us” was a joke intended to suggest you stop stereotyping, and yes you have free will. I disagree it’s “supernatural,” and since you have free will, I disagree that your sexism is “biologically determined.”

How is this mindset and behavior not worse than the worst manifestations of Mormon culture?

Next I predict that several of you will start dogpiling on me (a single individual). Like I have said in other posts, I have dealt with contentious disagreeable personalities in Mormon culture as well, but at least in LDS culture there is a Shared Standard to hold people accountable and friendlier. I have never experienced this much of negative energy on a Mormon board or anywhere else among LDS. So why would I join you?

I’m not asking you to join a group, I’m just responding to your comments. If having your sexist comments pointed out gives you negative energy, that’s an issue you will have to deal with.

[Free Ranger]

So which is it? I'm biologically determined and you don't want to change me or I have supernatural free will and you want me to join your secular religion of Wokeism?

How is this mindset and behavior not worse than the worst manifestations of Mormon culture?

..... I have never experienced this much of negative energy on a Mormon board or anywhere else among LDS. So why would I join you?

free ranger, I think you have some interesting observations some I agree with and others I do not much.

I think your will is free enough to make some decisions and come to new understandings whether it is all natural or if it has a supernatural dimension.

I find your comments about a secular religion of wokeism about as friendly as a poke in the eye with a stick.

Just to identify myself, I am a Christian believer who is roughly neo orthodox, can like Borg and not so much Spong. I think valuable spiritual understanding and encouragement can be found in a wide variety of human cult and myth.

Fair enough, I take your points. I guess I was feeling frustrated when I came on here with my first post recently about my frustrations with Wokeism and how it makes the worst aspects of Mormonism look tame by comparison; that was the point I was making, how I might be better off as a man in Mormon culture. I fully accept you offering constructive criticism and pointing out that my rhetoric might have felt like a poke in the eye to some. In the future I will keep that in mind. But having said that, after I vented my feelings without singling out anyone individually in my initial post, I did try very hard to treat the people I was individually communicating with with respect. That is until I was personally attacked.

I also provided several sources showing why wokeism is a problem, including fellow exMormons like Jonathan Streeter and Chris Hanna. And no one has commented on the link to the Jonathan Streeter video on how some on the extreme far Left are defending pedophilia, at: https://youtu.be/qAP4czG3DjE
I think I have a right to, and should be, troubled by that; I think it behooves us all who have a conscience to speak up (like Jonathan Streeter has the courage to do).

But everyone need not worry, as Nietzsche once said to paraphrase, I am not the mouth for these ears. In other words, I won't be posting here much longer. It can be a good intellectual exercise to swim upstream to build cerebral muscles, but eventually you just get pulled out by the riptide and drowned in the abyss. In other words, unless I'm mistaken, while there are some very good and decent people on here who I respect and admire, unless I am mistaken it feels like there is a majority voice, a loud crowd of those in the exmormon community who have moved to the extreme far Left politically; and seek to sell wokeism. I just saw a video of John Dehlin going off on how it's terrible he's a white male in a position of power and cisgender and all this stuff, virtue signalling and all of it. Meanwhile I don't think he has any intention of relinquishing his power and wealth. My point is I just can't watch this kind of cultish rhetoric and behavior by those who say that Mormonism was cultish. When I first left the Mormon Church 15 years ago, I pointed out the same double standard among Evangelical Christians who would complain about Mormonism being cultish and then act more cultish. Back then there was a larger group of agnostics and atheist and humanistic-Christians as exMormons that were focused on actual science and humanism and were politically moderate and upheld the basic principles of "Americanism" and the general ethic of Christianity. That crowd has now dwindled it seems, in the larger louder voice of Wokeism has taken over.

Let's just say I liked the ex-Mormon community and Atheism better in the 1990s and early 2000s when it wasn't selling a secular religion but was more into actual science and philosophy and was more moderate politically.

By the way, I am a big fan of Marcus Borg and I have read nearly all of his books. I really liked his historical-metaphorical method for interpreting scripture. I build off of what he wrote on my blog.

Peace

[Free Ranger]

Respectfully, you only think I'm sexist because you have an extreme point-of-view on the extreme far Left.

Respectfully, No. I think you’re sexist because you write things like this

This is no longer about condemning bad man or making evil men good, it has become a feminist/Woke religion about attacking all men and replacing patriarchy with matriarchy, masculinity with universal femininity, so that we do indeed need an antidote to the Chaos.

And this

I have a Mormon uncle who ruled the roost as a devout Mormon and now that his wife has a debilitating illness, it is his masculine power and money that is capable of taking care of her and giving her healing luxuries that she would not have had if she was a single woman and relying on the state to take care of her. In other words, yes she allegedly "sacrificed being a Wokeist feminist,"

And this

I think that's what I like about Mormonism most of all now, the fact that it is patriarchal. Because you know what happens when you have "too many roosters," you have chaos. You can't have both the man and the woman in a small space taking on the role of the rooster,

Etc, etc, etc.

My head is still spinning from when you said in the other thread:


So which is it? I'm biologically determined and you don't want to change me or I have supernatural free will and you want me to join your secular religion of Wokeism?

the “join us” was a joke intended to suggest you stop stereotyping, and yes you have free will. I disagree it’s “supernatural,” and since you have free will, I disagree that your sexism is “biologically determined.”

How is this mindset and behavior not worse than the worst manifestations of Mormon culture?

Next I predict that several of you will start dogpiling on me (a single individual). Like I have said in other posts, I have dealt with contentious disagreeable personalities in Mormon culture as well, but at least in LDS culture there is a Shared Standard to hold people accountable and friendlier. I have never experienced this much of negative energy on a Mormon board or anywhere else among LDS. So why would I join you?

I’m not asking you to join a group, I’m just responding to your comments. If having your sexist comments pointed out gives you negative energy, that’s an issue you will have to deal with.

I already addressed every one of these quotes already in that thread. The audience can go to that thread and read carefully my words and decide for themselves. Just one example. My comment on patriarchy replacing matriarchy was in my subconscious after watching the end of the third season of House of Cards where there's a scene where a door is opened to an all-female cabinet by the female president; which was clearly a politically motivated scene symbolically representing a message of we need to replace toxic masculinity with a form of matriarchy.

The other quotes are taken out of context. I'll leave it up to the audience to go back and read the entire post as well as my additional posts in that thread where I clarify my opinions and experiences further.

Anyway, I just consider this more personal attacks and taking things out of context and not being fair by not including my responses and everything else I said in its entirety in that initial thread where I wrote several additional posts clarifying my thoughts and positions and provided sources and arguments and evidence, and corrected some things and clarified things.

Bottom line is your behavior is simply proving my point. If I got on here and spoke in the same way as I did about wokeism but instead was critical only of Mormonism, you would not have batted an eye. In fact you would have been cheering me on! But the fact that I said something about wokeism and that triggered you, says it all. I rest my case so to speak.

And no, I think it's clear you were not joking, and no I'm not going to join your secular religion.

[huckelberry]

..................

I also provided several sources showing why wokeism is a problem, including fellow exMormons like Jonathan Streeter and Chris Hanna. And no one has commented on the link to the Jonathan Streeter video on how some on the extreme far Left are defending pedophilia, at: https://youtu.be/qAP4czG3DjE
I think I have a right to, and should be, troubled by that; I think it behooves us all who have a conscience to speak up (like Jonathan Streeter has the courage to do).

......... unless I am mistaken it feels like there is a majority voice, a loud crowd of those in the exmormon community who have moved to the extreme far Left politically; and seek to sell wokeism. I just saw a video of John Dehlin going off on how it's terrible he's a white male in a position of power and cisgender and all this stuff, virtue signalling and all of it. Meanwhile I don't think he has any intention of relinquishing his power and wealth. My point is I just can't watch this kind of cultish rhetoric and behavior by those who say that Mormonism was cultish. When I first left the Mormon Church 15 years ago, I pointed out the same double standard among Evangelical Christians who would complain about Mormonism being cultish and then act more cultish. Back then there was a larger group of agnostics and atheist and humanistic-Christians as exMormons that were focused on actual science and humanism and were politically moderate and upheld the basic principles of "Americanism" and the general ethic of Christianity. That crowd has now dwindled it seems, in the larger louder voice of Wokeism has taken over.

Let's just say I liked the ex-Mormon community and Atheism better in the 1990s and early 2000s when it wasn't selling a secular religion but was more into actual science and philosophy and was more moderate politically.

By the way, I am a big fan of Marcus Borg and I have read nearly all of his books. I really liked his historical-metaphorical method for interpreting scripture. I build off of what he wrote on my blog.

Peace

Freeranger, Perhaps a problem I have in following your view is that though I am exMormon, left long ago, I have never been a part of an exmormon community. I have known a couple friends who are exmormon. The common experience of Mormonism is part of discussion here but in general it seems better to me to have wider connections with thoughts and people.

There are definitely extremes that appear in society and should be rejected.Pedophilia apologetic, helter skelter, unibomber, people shutting down speakers they do not like. There were destructive extremes in the movement against the Vietnam war. People should not be afraid to stand against or criticize.

A person should not be ashamed of being white, cisgender, and having power. A person should not think power is their right.

I am happy you repeat the basic principals of American values.

[Free Ranger]

By the way, I am not the only one who feels this way. See: I left The Church of Social Justice for the same reasons I left Mormonism by Natasha Coulis at https://natashacoulis.medium.com/i-left ... c1c8d49656

[Marcus]

Bottom line is your behavior is simply proving my point. If I got on here and spoke in the same way as I did about wokeism but instead was critical only of Mormonism, you would not have batted an eye. In fact you would have been cheering me on!

And in thinking that you would be absolutely, unequivocally, DEAD. WRONG.
Without question.

And no im not going to join your secular religion.

given i don't have one i suppose that's a good thing. You really seem to be needing a group. I wish you the best in finding what you need.

[MG 2.0]

free ranger, I think you have some interesting observations some I agree with and others I do not much.

I think your will is free enough to make some decisions and come to new understandings whether it is all natural or if it has a supernatural dimension.

I find your comments about a secular religion of wokeism about as friendly as a poke in the eye with a stick.

Just to identify myself, I am a Christian believer who is roughly neo orthodox, can like Borg and not so much Spong. I think valuable spiritual understanding and encouragement can be found in a wide variety of human cult and myth.

Fair enough, I take your points. I guess I was feeling frustrated when I came on here with my first post recently about my frustrations with Wokeism and how it makes the worst aspects of Mormonism look tame by comparison; that was the point I was making, how I might be better off as a man in Mormon culture. I fully accept you offering constructive criticism and pointing out that my rhetoric might have felt like a poke in the eye to some. In the future I will keep that in mind. But having said that, after I vented my feelings without singling out anyone individually in my initial post, I did try very hard to treat the people I was individually communicating with with respect. That is until I was personally attacked.

I also provided several sources showing why wokeism is a problem, including fellow exMormons like Jonathan Streeter and Chris Hanna. And no one has commented on the link to the Jonathan Streeter video on how some on the extreme far Left are defending pedophilia, at: https://youtu.be/qAP4czG3DjE
I think I have a right to, and should be, troubled by that; I think it behooves us all who have a conscience to speak up (like Jonathan Streeter has the courage to do).

But everyone need not worry, as Nietzsche once said to paraphrase, I am not the mouth for these ears. In other words, I won't be posting here much longer. It can be a good intellectual exercise to swim upstream to build cerebral muscles, but eventually you just get pulled out by the riptide and drowned in the abyss. In other words, unless I'm mistaken, while there are some very good and decent people on here who I respect and admire, unless I am mistaken it feels like there is a majority voice, a loud crowd of those in the exmormon community who have moved to the extreme far Left politically; and seek to sell wokeism. I just saw a video of John Dehlin going off on how it's terrible he's a white male in a position of power and cisgender and all this stuff, virtue signalling and all of it. Meanwhile I don't think he has any intention of relinquishing his power and wealth. My point is I just can't watch this kind of cultish rhetoric and behavior by those who say that Mormonism was cultish. When I first left the Mormon Church 15 years ago, I pointed out the same double standard among Evangelical Christians who would complain about Mormonism being cultish and then act more cultish. Back then there was a larger group of agnostics and atheist and humanistic-Christians as exMormons that were focused on actual science and humanism and were politically moderate and upheld the basic principles of "Americanism" and the general ethic of Christianity. That crowd has now dwindled it seems, in the larger louder voice of Wokeism has taken over.

Let's just say I liked the ex-Mormon community and Atheism better in the 1990s and early 2000s when it wasn't selling a secular religion but was more into actual science and philosophy and was more moderate politically.

By the way, I am a big fan of Marcus Borg and I have read nearly all of his books. I really liked his historical-metaphorical method for interpreting scripture. I build off of what he wrote on my blog.

Peace

Your voice will be missed when/if you leave. But I totally get it. The riptide/abyss. Yep. That’s why I hang out here for a while, then leave. It can get fairly toxic.

The riptide/current is quite strong and in my estimation, dangerous in the longterm.

I think to some extent or another we all see through a metaphorical lens of sorts as we experience religion. Mormonism included. It’s difficult from any perspective to fully understand or explain the numinous. Here we are, puny mortals, trying to wrap our minds around and explain ‘God’.

I have REALLY enjoyed your thoughts. Many of the responses to your posts have been somewhat shallow and without any real meaning or effect in regards to the points you’ve made/raised. At least in my opinion.

Good to have you here.

Thank you.

Regards,
MG