Transfiguration of Brigham Young

[Kishkumen]

Too bad you don't want to share. I wanted to see why you tried to poison this thread with your "who cares" comment. You obviously believe that Smith had authority at some time that was stolen by BY, or at least that is what I surmise from your comments. That took me by surprise as I have read comments by you where you believe that the Book of Mormon is of the 19th century. So, I assumed you didn't buy into the Joseph Smith as prophet story. My mistake.

No worries, Dr Exiled. I know you are not mistaken. You have performed your role adequately. We all see once again that you do not believe in Mormonism, and that is what you are interested in achieving. Bravo. Identity affirmed.

For those who are interested in learning things, and who know the difference between poisoning a thread and offering a different perspective, I am happy to share. I have, in fact, shared plenty already, right here in this very thread.

But I get it. It is more important to you to establish yourself as definitely non-believing and to find your people, who are the only ones qualified to teach you what you already know: that Mormonism is false.

[Shulem]

Well, this whole business of the so-called transfiguration probably means different things to different people. It may be a bigger deal for me because I have a direct ancestor who was one of those who later testified of this experience. So, it has more meaning for me and is perhaps a little more difficult to dismiss than those who aren't getting this witness from their ancestor.

I'll post that testimony.

To my Wives and Children:

Feeling that I shall not enjoy the privilege of addressing you in a united capacity many more times during my earthly sojourn, I am impelled by a husband's and a father's love to offer you my final and parting instructions. I bear you this my testimony:

Before I left Nauvoo, I heard the Prophet Joseph say he would give the Saints a key whereby they would never be led away or deceived, and that was: the Lord would never suffer the majority of this people to be led away or deceived by imposters, nor would he allow the records of this Church to fall into the hands of the enemy. I heard Joseph say this, and I also heard him say that he would roll the burden of the Apostleship upon the quorum of the Twelve. I heard Joseph preach many times; heard him, in the last sermon he ever delivered, bear testimony to the truth of the work that God had called him to; also that the Lord had never suffered him to be slain by his enemies, because his work had not been done, until a short time ago. He had now laid the foundation of this work, and rolled the burden of the priesthood upon the Twelve; and, having given them their washings and anointings, they would now bear off this work triumphantly, and it would roll on faster than ever before; and, if the Lord was willing to accept of him, he was willing to go.

This he spoke to the people. I was one who heard his voice, and know that he spoke like an angel from heaven. I never heard him speak with more power than then, and I heard him many times. I was satisfied. I knew him to be a prophet of God. I had heard him prophesy many times, and had seen his prophecies fulfilled, and had also shaken hands with him, and he had blessed me, and I had felt the influence and power of the Lord upon him and upon me, and I have never forgotten that blessing from that day to this, and I never shall. Two days later the Prophet was martyred, and two or three weeks later, when the saints held a conference, and Brigham Young arose as leader of the Church, I want to bear record that he spoke as Joseph used to speak; to all appearances, the same voice, the same gestures, the same stature. I bear this record to all the world, to my children and to my children's children, and also bear record that this work is God's work, and that it will roll on as it has done from that day to this.

[drumdude]

Isn’t it weird how such important events are relayed to us with such confusion?

Joseph saw God only. Actually he saw Jesus only. Actually it was God and Jesus and Colonel Mustard.

Brigham appeared to look like Joseph. Actually he just had the countenance of Joseph. Actually he just sounded powerful and like a prophet.

Is it any surprise people don’t want to base their lives and their Children’s lives on tall tales and big fish stories? Dan Peterson might as well be defending the reality of Paul Bunyan.

[Dr Exiled]

Too bad you don't want to share. I wanted to see why you tried to poison this thread with your "who cares" comment. You obviously believe that Smith had authority at some time that was stolen by BY, or at least that is what I surmise from your comments. That took me by surprise as I have read comments by you where you believe that the Book of Mormon is of the 19th century. So, I assumed you didn't buy into the Joseph Smith as prophet story. My mistake.

No worries, Dr Exiled. I know you are not mistaken. You have performed your role adequately. We all see once again that you do not believe in Mormonism, and that is what you are interested in achieving. Bravo. Identity affirmed.

For those who are interested in learning things, and who know the difference between poisoning a thread and offering a different perspective, I am happy to share. I have, in fact, shared plenty already, right here in this very thread.

But I get it. It is more important to you to establish yourself as definitely non-believing and to find your people, who are the only ones qualified to teach you what you already know: that Mormonism is false.

I think it's fine that you still believe in some fashion. To each his own. However, most commenters here and the Podcasters who comment here are about showing how false Mormonism is. So, there must be something else to this. Anyway, feel free to put me on ignore if you don't like my comments.

[Kishkumen]

I think it's fine that you still believe in some fashion. To each his own. However, most commenters here and the Podcasters who comment here are about showing how false Mormonism is. So, there must be something else to this. Anyway, feel free to put me on ignore if you don't like my comments.

Well, I guess you can feel like part of the “in group” then. For what it’s worth, I think belief is irrelevant. At least, it is to me. And this is why I find your initial fake inquiry so tiresome. I have mentioned my position regarding the irrelevance of belief a few times now. My comments on this thread are not about belief or non-belief. I don’t care at all about either. Believe if you want. Don’t believe if you want. It doesn’t matter one way or the other to me. I don’t like or dislike commenters or podcasters based on their belief or disbelief either. What I find disappointing and boring is the tribalism.

I also find the whole task of proving Mormonism false about as interesting and worthwhile as proving the flavor chocolate false.

[Kishkumen]

Isn’t it weird how such important events are relayed to us with such confusion?

Joseph saw God only. Actually he saw Jesus only. Actually it was God and Jesus and Colonel Mustard.

Brigham appeared to look like Joseph. Actually he just had the countenance of Joseph. Actually he just sounded powerful and like a prophet.

Is it any surprise people don’t want to base their lives and their Children’s lives on tall tales and big fish stories? Dan Peterson might as well be defending the reality of Paul Bunyan.

Why is this at all surprising to you? Clearly what we have here is a traumatized group of people faced with a very uncertain situation who justified their decision to follow Brigham Young based partly on their correct judgment that he made a better leader than Sidney Rigdon. That meant, evidently, the mantle of Joseph passed to Brigham. Look back to the Abner Cole satire, The Book of Pukei, where the mantle of Walters the Magician passed to the boy Joseph Smith. If you want to understand this whole phenomenon better, one place to look would be at other instances of the use of this metaphor.

I feel sympathetic and compassionate toward these people who just lived through the assassination of their leader and were casting about for any hope of a secure future in a suitable replacement for the fallen prophet. Some of them are, as Shulem pointed out, our ancestors. They did the best they could in horrendous circumstances. We can decide not to do what Rusty Nelson says for a thousand decent reasons, but maybe these people deserve some kind of grace from us in light of what they went through.

[drumdude]

Isn’t it weird how such important events are relayed to us with such confusion?

Joseph saw God only. Actually he saw Jesus only. Actually it was God and Jesus and Colonel Mustard.

Brigham appeared to look like Joseph. Actually he just had the countenance of Joseph. Actually he just sounded powerful and like a prophet.

Is it any surprise people don’t want to base their lives and their Children’s lives on tall tales and big fish stories? Dan Peterson might as well be defending the reality of Paul Bunyan.

Why is this at all surprising to you? Clearly what we have here is a traumatized group of people faced with a very uncertain situation who justified their decision to follow Brigham Young based partly on their correct judgment that he made a better leader than Sidney Rigdon. That meant, evidently, the mantle of Joseph passed to Brigham. Look back to the Abner Cole satire, The Book of Pukei, where the mantle of Walters the Magician passed to the boy Joseph Smith. If you want to understand this whole phenomenon better, one place to look would be at other instances of the use of this metaphor.

I feel sympathetic and compassionate toward these people who just lived through the assassination of their leader and were casting about for any hope of a secure future in a suitable replacement for the fallen prophet. Some of them are, as Shulem pointed out, our ancestors. They did the best they could in horrendous circumstances. We can decide not to do what Rusty Nelson says for a thousand decent reasons, but maybe these people deserve some kind of grace from us in light of what they went through.

I believe they do deserve sympathy and compassion from us. But too often DCP hijacks that sympathy to make a case that we should believe them, take their experiences literally, and follow the LDS church based on their testimony. Or at least, have more faith in the LDS church because of their testimony.

[Dr Exiled]

I think it's fine that you still believe in some fashion. To each his own. However, most commenters here and the Podcasters who comment here are about showing how false Mormonism is. So, there must be something else to this. Anyway, feel free to put me on ignore if you don't like my comments.

Well, I guess you can feel like part of the “in group” then. For what it’s worth, I think belief is irrelevant. At least, it is to me. And this is why I find your initial fake inquiry so tiresome. I have mentioned my position regarding the irrelevance of belief a few times now. My comments on this thread are not about belief or non-belief. I don’t care at all about either. Believe if you want. Don’t believe if you want. It doesn’t matter one way or the other to me. I don’t like or dislike commenters or podcasters based on their belief or disbelief either. What I find disappointing and boring is the tribalism.

I also find the whole task of proving Mormonism false about as interesting and worthwhile as proving the flavor chocolate false.

I don't follow you that closely. So, I don't know your position on things like you assume I should.

Fake inquiry? Ok. I made a real inquiry directed at you. If you choose to deflect, then that is your choice. No problem. I see that you are beyond belief and on a different plane, lol, MF Bukowski.

Tribalism? Maybe I misunderstand your comments elsewhere.

[drumdude]

Well, I guess you can feel like part of the “in group” then. For what it’s worth, I think belief is irrelevant. At least, it is to me. And this is why I find your initial fake inquiry so tiresome. I have mentioned my position regarding the irrelevance of belief a few times now. My comments on this thread are not about belief or non-belief. I don’t care at all about either. Believe if you want. Don’t believe if you want. It doesn’t matter one way or the other to me. I don’t like or dislike commenters or podcasters based on their belief or disbelief either. What I find disappointing and boring is the tribalism.

I also find the whole task of proving Mormonism false about as interesting and worthwhile as proving the flavor chocolate false.

I don't follow you that closely. So, I don't know your position on things like you assume I should.

Fake inquiry? Ok. I made a real inquiry directed at you. If you choose to deflect, then that is your choice. No problem. I see that you are beyond belief and on a different plane, lol, MF Bukowski.

Tribalism? Maybe I misunderstand your comments elsewhere.

I get the feeling Kish is projecting a bit of his own frustrations onto posters here. I can understand being involved with Mormonism for such a long time that you start to see everything as tribal bickering and stop seeing the discussion.

For the most part, I see a lot of people here not attacking the church just to attack the church. I see them calling out an institution that promotes ideas that directly conflict with reality, like Hebrews in the Americas. That’s not just a belief, that’s misinformation. That’s indisputably false, and worth criticizing until the people to keep teaching that lie stop.

I don’t have a problem with Mormons believing in a physical God. I have a problem with Mormons teaching children that 2 plus 2 equals 5.

[Kishkumen]

I don't follow you that closely. So, I don't know your position on things like you assume I should.

Right! That’s why we’re having this discussion! Because you don’t pay attention to what I write. Got it.

Fake inquiry? Ok. I made a real inquiry directed at you. If you choose to deflect, then that is your choice. No problem. I see that you are beyond belief and on a different plane, lol, MF Bukowski.

Yeah, fake. And I don’t respond to fake inquiries loaded with scare quotes that amount to so much signaling to the crowd. Just like this lame performance, where you compare me to an apologist on the board.

Nicely done! We get which side you’re on! You slipped in your signal again!

Tribalism? Maybe I misunderstand your comments elsewhere.

Faux confusion suits you so well.