Apologist Defends Fac 3, Figure 6 from the Archives

[hauslern]

I got a kind letter from Royal Skousen defending what he placed on his page regarid the facsimiles accompaning the Book of Abraham. . He does not accept the facsimile interpretations as valid but accepts the content of the Book of Abraham as inspired except those that refer to the facsimiles. He says his comments on his page represent what he thinks. I had written to him about the problems i saw with facsimile 3 (false insertions). I feel if we talk with LDS with less beligerance we get better communication.

[Philo Sofee]

I got a kind letter from Royal Skousen defending what he placed on his page regarid the facsimiles accompaning the Book of Abraham. . He does not accept the facsimile interpretations as valid but accepts the content of the Book of Abraham as inspired except those that refer to the facsimiles. He says his comments on his page represent what he thinks. I had written to him about the problems i saw with facsimile 3 (false insertions). I feel if we talk with LDS with less beligerance we get better communication.

I suspect you are more than correct. I get a wee bit belligerent, and am attempting to tone it down some. That is with some LDS. Those who actually do attempt to deceive and know better I feel no compunction to go soft on.

[hauslern]

Dear Noel,

I definitely do NOT hold a positive view of Joseph Smith’s “interpretation” of the facsimiles. Here’s what’s on my curriculum vitae, at the end in the section entitled “Fundamental Scholarly Discoveries and Academic Accomplishments by Royal Skousen from about 1970 to 2020; first placed online in 2014”, on page 39:

“The Book of Abraham was a revelation given to Joseph Smith, who later (mistakenly thinking it was a translation from the papyri he had in his possession) tried to connect the revealed text to the papyri by inserting two sentences, verse 12c and verse 14, into Abraham 1. The secondary nature of these two inserted sentences can be directly observed in the photos of folios 1a and 1b in the document identified as Ab2. Verse 12c is totally inserted intralinearly, not partially (as incorrectly represented in the accompanying transcription – and without comment). Verse 14 is not written on the page as are other portions of this part of the text (instead, it is written flush to the left), which implies that it is a comment on the papyri and that it was added to the revealed text. Overall, these results imply that all the facsimiles from the papyri (1-3 in the published Pearl of Great Price) should be considered extracanonical and additions to the revealed text of the Book of Abraham, not integral parts of the original text of the book.”

Yes, the facsimiles are shameful “reproductions” and have been so from the 1840s when first published in Times and Seasons. Yes, the engraver took a part from elsewhere on the hypocephalus and used it to fill up the missing part. I myself would like to see the Book of Abraham with the two secondary insertions in the first chapter removed that connect the text with the papyri and, in fact, no facsimiles or any connection with the Kirtland papyri. The actual text of the Book of Abraham has many interesting things, but the whole discussion has been hijacked by the papyri.

I am sending on my views to Dan Peterson and John Gee. I give you permission to post online what I have written in the ending section of my vita.

With best wishes, Royal

I appreciate his taking time out to clarify what he had on his cv. He still has a position and has a reputation dealng with the Book of Mormon manuscripts.

Shulem please go easy on him. It is a huge step for him.

[hauslern]

In my question to Dan Petersen if he knew if there was any compelling evidence to support Smith's interpretation of the facsimiles he supplied reference on this site
https://ixtheo.de/Record/1786028417 "And I Saw the Stars": The Book of Abraham and Ancient Geocentric Astronomy

and
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... y?lang=eng

[Shulem]

Shulem please go easy on him. It is a huge step for him.

The Facsimiles are the least of his worries! The Facsimiles are small potatoes when it comes to critical analysis of the Book of Abraham! The real monster under the bed is that the chronology of the Book of Abraham as outlined in chapter 1 in describing Egypt's making is obviously an unscientific fabricated story ignorantly made up out of whole cloth and does not account for predynastic Egypt. Chapter one of the Book of Abraham goes directly into Dynastic Egypt with no thought to how it became Dynastic Egypt in the first place through the Unification of the Two Lands long before the date in which the Genesis account grants. I've pointed this out in at least a couple of my threads here on this board. The dating of Egypt vs. the account given in Smith's chapter 1 is an absolute contradiction and Smith's revelation of the iniquities in his possession being 3,500 years old in dating Abraham defies conventional chronology especially marked by the building of the pyramids.

Royal is in more trouble than he knows. Wouldn't you say, Philo?

Shulem is ready for them. So also is Vogel. The Book of Abraham is going down -- lock, stock, and barrel!

[Philo Sofee]

Royal Skousen
“The Book of Abraham was a revelation given to Joseph Smith, who later (mistakenly thinking it was a translation from the papyri

Against everything Joseph Smith HIMSELF described and said! (always, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS quote Joseph Smith to them) And critics have been accused (falsely) of being mind readers?! This Catalyst theory doesn't save Joseph Smith. I get the Skousen is trying to be more realistic about the church narrative, but ignoring Joseph Smith is not historically valid. The supposed added two sentences as a later assertion is one angle all right, (Vogel disputes it however) but there are many MANY other evidences showing the Book of Breathings is the source of the Book of Abraham. I am going to be showing each and every single one of them in my Mormon Stories session with Dehlin, systematically in full detail Monday night, May 2nd, 6 p.m. The evidence is fundamentally overwhelming.

They are trying to change the narrative in the wrong direction. Joseph Smith is ON RECORD as specifically saying he was translating Egyptian and the papyri and creating alphabets and learning meanings of words, concepts, verbs, participles, etc. Skousen's argument simply won't hold up to the evidence.

[Philo Sofee]

Shulem please go easy on him. It is a huge step for him.

The Facsimiles are the least of his worries! The Facsimiles are small potatoes when it comes to critical analysis of the Book of Abraham! The real monster under the bed is that the chronology of the Book of Abraham as outlined in chapter 1 in describing Egypt's making is obviously an unscientific fabricated story ignorantly made up out of whole cloth and does not account for predynastic Egypt. Chapter one of the Book of Abraham goes directly into Dynastic Egypt with no thought to how it became Dynastic Egypt in the first place through the Unification of the Two Lands long before the date in which the Genesis account grants. I've pointed this out in at least a couple of my threads here on this board. The dating of Egypt vs. the account given in Smith's chapter 1 is an absolute contradiction and Smith's revelation of the iniquities in his possession being 3,500 years old in dating Abraham defies conventional chronology especially marked by the building of the pyramids.

Royal is in more trouble than he knows. Wouldn't you say, Philo?

Shulem is ready for them. So also is Vogel. The Book of Abraham is going down -- lock, stock, and barrel!

Vogel is ready, Backyard Professor is ready, Shulem is ready, and Gee, and Peterson, and Skousen are not. Skousen simply does not grasp the overall problem of his view. It goes against so much of what Joseph Smith actually said or supervised in the history of his meaning and intent. NOW who are being the mind readers?

[Philo Sofee]

Skousen
I myself would like to see the Book of Abraham with the two secondary insertions in the first chapter removed that connect the text with the papyri and, in fact, no facsimiles or any connection with the Kirtland papyri.

Yes, misalign and rearrange the evidence to help save Joseph Smith. ALL Books of Breathings have ILLUSTRATIONS that CANNOT BE DIVORCED FROM THEM, Joseph Smith's INCLUDED. The facsimiles are INTEGRAL to the roll Dr. Skousen. You don't get to mar the historical evidence in order to save Joseph Smith's silliness. Joseph Smith said they come FROM the Book of Abraham, because they were LITERALLY cut FROM the Book of Breathings, which Jospeh Smith IDENTIFIED ***AS*** the Book of Abraham. You don't get to just throw away the inconvenient parts to help you maintain your faith, that's not how history and honesty work. (see folks? This is why it is VERY helpful to know something about this topic so when LDS leaders, historians, and apologists run rough shod over the evidence we can check them and do so FIRMLY)

[Shulem]

Royal Skousen
“The Book of Abraham was a revelation given to Joseph Smith, who later (mistakenly thinking it was a translation from the papyri

Against everything Joseph Smith HIMSELF described and said! (always, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS quote Joseph Smith to them)

Please note that "Fac-simile No. 3 is FROM the Book of Abraham." That is the revelation given to the world by the prophet Joseph Smith as published in the Times and Seasons, 1842. Nothing can change the fact that this declaration *was* made. And according to the prophet, truth will prevail. Royal can't change that. All he can do is change his belief in what Smith said, thus reject Smith's words.




Warts and all!

[Shulem]

Yes, the facsimiles are shameful “reproductions” and have been so from the 1840s when first published in Times and Seasons.

1842
January 28

A Revelation to the twelve concrning the Times
and Seasons.

Verily thus saith the Lord unto you
my servant Joseph. go and say unto the Twelve
That it is my will to have them take in hand
the Editorial department of the Times and
Seasons according to that manifestation. which
Shall be given unto them by the Power of
My Holy Spirit in the midst of their counsel
Saith the Lord. Amen



Shame on the Lord!