Spending Easter With the Mopologists

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IHAQ
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Re: Spending Easter With the Mopologists

Post by IHAQ »

Doctor Scratch wrote:
Mon Apr 18, 2022 1:57 am
Wow…In case you had any doubts about the Mopologists’ disdain for the Community of Christ, just check out this “Easter Message” from the Proprietor of SeN:
DCP wrote: And that reminded me of a story that was told me a few years ago about a Latter-day Saint sacrament meeting that was held in the Kirtland Temple under the leadership of a member of the Quorum of the Twelve. It was the first time that such a meeting had been permitted in that building, which is currently owned by the Community of Christ (formerly the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints). Permission had come from the RLDS First Presidency, but the RLDS employee who was the manager of the Kirtland Temple and surrounding properties was not at all happy about that, and was fairly vocal about his displeasure. Still, he sat in on the meeting — probably to make sure that the “Utah Mormons” didn’t do any damage or misbehave. The person who later told me the story was one of those who were passing the sacrament, and the RLDS manager was sitting in the section of the temple to which he had been assigned. He pondered whether he should offer the sacrament to someone who, although affiliated with the Restoration tradition, wasn’t actually a baptized member of the Church. Finally, though, he decided that he would. But the man rather brusquely waved him off, declining to accept emblems of the sacrament administered by the “Utah church.”

Afterwards, however, he approached my friend (a resident of the area around Kirtland, whom he knew) and apologized quite emotionally. Immediately following his refusal to take the sacrament, he said, he been roundly rebuked by the Spirit. He had, he continued, never experienced such a chastising before. “This isn’t your House,” a powerful inner voice forcefully told him. “This is my House.”

I’ve loved that account ever since.
That’s one heck of an “Easter Message”: giddily telling this story about a faithful CoC custodian who’s humiliated in front of the Brighamite faction. Sheesh. No wonder they’re making and anti-CoC film for their next movie project.
One assumes Peterson is passing on (second hand) gossip about the event detailed by the Church as follows:
The Kirtland Temple – scene of several divine manifestations to Joseph Smith and other early Church leaders – was the location Nov. 6 for an LDS Church worship meeting, believed to be the first in the temple in 140 years.

The service was in connection with an annual priesthood leadership training meeting and mission presidents seminar in the Church's North America Northeast Area. The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which owns and operates the temple, granted permission to the area presidency to hold the worship service in the temple.Elder M. Russell Ballard of the Council of the Twelve presided at the service, and Elder Cree-L Kofford of the Seventy conducted. Speakers included Elder Kofford, area president; and his first counselor, Elder Yoshihiko Kikuchi of the Seventy. The second counselor, Elder Vaughn J Featherstone of the Seventy, also attended but left the area training meeting to conduct a stake conference in the Syracuse New York Stake.
https://www.thechurchnews.com/archives/ ... ple-141154

Interestingly, instead of searching for a negative, the Church found the following positive…
Elder Ballard, the concluding speaker, commended the RLDS leaders for their willingness to share the temple and cited the warm relationship between the two churches. <snip>
The meeting, Elder Ballard noted, represented a major step by the RLDS Church to reach out to other groups and share the building for worship and inspiration.
I wonder who Peterson knows who passed the sacrament that day and who chose to bad mouth a RLDS Custodian with a tale that may, or may not be accurate? Anyway, here’s a positive experience from someone who really did pass the Sacrament that day…
The sacrament portion of the service was also a highlight for Elder Kikuchi, who noted that Elder Ballard, an apostle of the Lord, blessed the sacrament in the temple as his ancestor Hyrum Smith had done.

Elder Kikuchi, who helped pass the sacrament, said, "We sat, possibly, right beneath the spot where the Savior appeared to Joseph and Oliver."
Remind me, what does the Church counsel about spreading Gossip?
When we gossip, we idly discuss someone’s weaknesses or problems when that person is not present. Gossip harms not only those who are being talked about, but also those who gossip and those who listen. Heavenly Father wants us to look for and speak of the good in others and eliminate gossip from our lives.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... p?lang=eng
And on Easter Sunday of all days…I hope Peterson apologises for spreading gossip about a Kirkland Temple custodian and removes the gossip from his blog. But I doubt he’s Christian enough to do so.

Is Elder Kikuchi Peterson’s source? Is Elder Kikuchi the guy bad mouthing the custodian?
Last edited by IHAQ on Mon Apr 18, 2022 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kishkumen
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Re: Spending Easter With the Mopologists

Post by Kishkumen »

I have very much enjoyed my experience attending meetings of the Community of Christ and my time following some of their Facebook groups. The membership is a lot more openly diverse in its opinions, and, as much as I would like to idealize that, it can result in interesting kinds of friction. There are old guard members who are much closer to LDS people in their opinions about certain things, and then there are those who are essentially Protestant Christians who happen to attend the Community of Christ. Some members emphasized the unique aspects of the Restoration, including the Book of Mormon, others had little to do with those things.

I got to know a former president of my university who was CoC, and he was really just a Protestant Christian who was attending the Community of Christ because his spouse grew up RLDS and the CoC was sufficiently acceptable, it seemed to me.

Many of my assumptions going into the experience of getting acquainted with the CoC were incorrect, and I was happy to learn that this is definitely a sect that is engaged with the Restoration, albeit in its own way, one that shaved off the more esoteric aspects of Nauvoo Mormonism and Brigham Young's particular take on them. I would say that most assumptions LDS people have about the CoC are misinterpretations and historical myths. That said, I do think that the CoC misses much about the Restoration that was genuinely a part of the tradition, just as the LDS Church also does in its own way.

Dr. Peterson's experience does ring true to me, although it is not representative of the whole surely. I doubt he intended to say it was. Having visited Kirtland, I recall the grumpy old CoC people working in a visitor center bookstore who really didn't seem to like Mormons very much. They are probably laboring under the same kinds of misapprehensions as those LDS people who are mystified about why the CoC removed the Book of Abraham from the canon of its scripture. Go look that one up, if you want to see what is wrong with the entire notion.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
Marcus
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Re: Spending Easter With the Mopologists

Post by Marcus »

Peterson’s intent may not have been to say the incident was representative, but he did say he has “loved that account ever since.”

This sounds like a story similar to Nelson’s plane ride of death. Lachlan Mackay still does oversee the Temple and surrounding historical properties, If I recall correctly, it would be interesting to see if he recalls anything similar to this story. The official version from IHAQ’s link says this:

Elder Pinegar said a particularly touching moment came when Elder Ballard, in front of the congregation, embraced Lachlan MacKay, a direct descendant of Joseph Smith and director of the Kirtland Temple for the RLDS Church who attended the service.
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malkie
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Re: Spending Easter With the Mopologists

Post by malkie »

Marcus wrote:
Mon Apr 18, 2022 2:53 pm
Peterson’s intent may not have been to say the incident was representative, but he did say he has “loved that account ever since.”

This sounds like a story similar to Nelson’s plane ride of death. Lachlan Mackay still does oversee the Temple and surrounding historical properties, If I recall correctly, it would be interesting to see if he recalls anything similar to this story. The official version from IHAQ’s link says this:

Elder Pinegar said a particularly touching moment came when Elder Ballard, in front of the congregation, embraced Lachlan MacKay, a direct descendant of Joseph Smith and director of the Kirtland Temple for the RLDS Church who attended the service.
Off topic - sorry!
Earlier today I was sorting through some photos from 2015, and came across one of Lachlan and my (LDS) wife at the entrance to the Kirtland Temple.
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Rivendale
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Re: Spending Easter With the Mopologists

Post by Rivendale »

drumdude wrote:
Mon Apr 18, 2022 12:10 am
I don't recommend reading peterson's daily comments, unless you are an avid fan of the film Groundhog Day. Every day is DCP and gemli having the same dumb argument.

But if you must:

https://disqus.com/by/DanielPeterson/
Gemli and Dan do rehash the same argument. I love it. Just like watching reruns of I dream of Jeannie. Try as they might they can't blink Gemli out of existence.
Tom
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Re: Spending Easter With the Mopologists

Post by Tom »

Marcus wrote:
Mon Apr 18, 2022 2:53 pm
Lachlan Mackay still does oversee the Temple and surrounding historical properties, If I recall correctly, it would be interesting to see if he recalls anything similar to this story.
I agree.

There are a few LDS sources indicating that Karl Anderson told a similar story in April 2002 (they seem to be from the same source, Alyn Andrus):

https://archive.org/stream/historyofbyu ... r_djvu.txt (pp. 121-22)
https://www.byui.edu/a/69215 (p. 8 in the PDF)

Also, see here: https://www2.byui.edu/Presentations/Tra ... offord.htm (see fourth paragraph).
“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.” Heber C. Kimball, 8 Nov. 1857
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Spending Easter With the Mopologists

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Tom wrote:
Mon Apr 18, 2022 7:16 pm
Marcus wrote:
Mon Apr 18, 2022 2:53 pm
Lachlan Mackay still does oversee the Temple and surrounding historical properties, If I recall correctly, it would be interesting to see if he recalls anything similar to this story.
I agree.

There are a few LDS sources indicating that Karl Anderson told a similar story in April 2002 (they seem to be from the same source, Alyn Andrus):

https://archive.org/stream/historyofbyu ... r_djvu.txt (pp. 121-22)
https://www.byui.edu/a/69215 (p. 8 in the PDF)

Also, see here: https://www2.byui.edu/Presentations/Tra ... offord.htm (see fourth paragraph).
So, Peterson plagiarized the story.

Man. He never stops with his immoral intellectual thievery.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Gadianton
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Re: Spending Easter With the Mopologists

Post by Gadianton »

Wow, that was fast. The curtains hadn't fully closed yet on the Mormon Easter day and the principle author of the SeN blog got back to preaching Joseph Smith as the central message of the Gospel.
“The fundamental principles of our religion,” said the Prophet Joseph Smith, “are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets...
Yep, Joseph Smith's testimony of himself is what it's all about, even on Christmas and Easter.

Personally, I don't have a problem with it. I don't care what people worship and none of those objects of worship are real. But I think people ought to be honest with themselves about their worship.
Tom
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Re: Spending Easter With the Mopologists

Post by Tom »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 12:34 am
Tom wrote:
Mon Apr 18, 2022 7:16 pm

I agree.

There are a few LDS sources indicating that Karl Anderson told a similar story in April 2002 (they seem to be from the same source, Alyn Andrus):

https://archive.org/stream/historyofbyu ... r_djvu.txt (pp. 121-22)
https://www.byui.edu/a/69215 (p. 8 in the PDF)

Also, see here: https://www2.byui.edu/Presentations/Tra ... offord.htm (see fourth paragraph).
So, Peterson plagiarized the story.

Man. He never stops with his immoral intellectual thievery.

- Doc
I would guess the blog proprietor heard the story directly from Karl Anderson or from someone who heard it from Anderson.
“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.” Heber C. Kimball, 8 Nov. 1857
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Doctor Scratch
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Re: Spending Easter With the Mopologists

Post by Doctor Scratch »

I noticed that, now that Easter has passed, the attacks on gemli have pretty much come to a complete standstill.
"If, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
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