Hallucinations and The Phantom God: What Neuroscience Reveals (October 2022)

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DrStakhanovite
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Re: Hallucinations and The Phantom God: What Neuroscience Reveals (October 2022)

Post by DrStakhanovite »

To be honest an endorsement blurb from Dan Barker kinda kills it for me.
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Rivendale
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Re: Hallucinations and The Phantom God: What Neuroscience Reveals (October 2022)

Post by Rivendale »

huckelberry wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 8:37 pm
drumdude wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 8:13 pm



There are a hundred billion times and places we are not looking, how do you know no miracles are happening? Careful scientific observation is limited to few isolated situations. Even there can you be sure everything is being seen?
The motivation of staying hidden seems problematic. It also goes against established evolutionary patterns for primates. But I guess you could buy into DCP's epistemic distance idea.
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Re: Hallucinations and The Phantom God: What Neuroscience Reveals (October 2022)

Post by huckelberry »

drumdude wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 8:55 pm



I think there are lots of ways to test the hypothesis. Your example of divine intervention is a good one. For starters, we can do a double blind experiment and see if prayer heals the sick in any measurable way. Wouldn’t it be good to know if prayer actually works? Pretty much every religion advocates it and we don’t even know if it beats placebo or not!
drumdude, I do not believe I can call up miracles. It would be nice if prayers healed people on a regular basis, It doesn't to my knowledge. Obviously it would be easier to believe in miracles if they happened upon a regular basis or upon demand. But the fact that they do not and cannot be called up upon demand does not demonstrate they do not happen.
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Re: Hallucinations and The Phantom God: What Neuroscience Reveals (October 2022)

Post by drumdude »

huckelberry wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 10:11 pm
drumdude wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 8:55 pm



I think there are lots of ways to test the hypothesis. Your example of divine intervention is a good one. For starters, we can do a double blind experiment and see if prayer heals the sick in any measurable way. Wouldn’t it be good to know if prayer actually works? Pretty much every religion advocates it and we don’t even know if it beats placebo or not!
drumdude, I do not believe I can call up miracles. It would be nice if prayers healed people on a regular basis, It doesn't to my knowledge. Obviously it would be easier to believe in miracles if they happened upon a regular basis or upon demand. But the fact that they do not and cannot be called up upon demand does not demonstrate they do not happen.
I would be willing to accept that except... religions say they DO work.

This is a bit like someone saying evolution is a correct theory, we just haven't found the fossil evidence yet. If evolution is true, we should find fossils. In fact we find them in the strata they're predicted to be in, confirming the theory day after day. If God is real, his promise that prayer heals should mean something.

The way religious people get out of this is that they say "God works in mysterious ways." The problem with that is it's indistinguishable from no God at all. You can believe in it if you want, but it's about as real as Unicorns at that point.
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Re: Hallucinations and The Phantom God: What Neuroscience Reveals (October 2022)

Post by huckelberry »

Rivendale wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 10:00 pm

The motivation of staying hidden seems problematic. It also goes against established evolutionary patterns for primates. But I guess you could buy into DCP's epistemic distance idea.
Rivendale

I am clueless as to what you might have in mind for established evolutionary patterns for primates. How would such be involved in how science could determine if miracles happen.
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Re: Hallucinations and The Phantom God: What Neuroscience Reveals (October 2022)

Post by huckelberry »

drumdude wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 10:20 pm
huckelberry wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 10:11 pm

drumdude, I do not believe I can call up miracles. It would be nice if prayers healed people on a regular basis, It doesn't to my knowledge. Obviously it would be easier to believe in miracles if they happened upon a regular basis or upon demand. But the fact that they do not and cannot be called up upon demand does not demonstrate they do not happen.
I would be willing to accept that except... religions say they DO work.

This is a bit like someone saying evolution is a correct theory, we just haven't found the fossil evidence yet. If evolution is true, we should find fossils. In fact we find them in the strata they're predicted to be in, confirming the theory day after day. If God is real, his promise that prayer heals should mean something.

The way religious people get out of this is that they say "God works in mysterious ways." The problem with that is it's indistinguishable from no God at all. You can believe in it if you want, but it's about as real as Unicorns at that point.
I do not believe any promise that prayer heals.
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Re: Hallucinations and The Phantom God: What Neuroscience Reveals (October 2022)

Post by doubtingthomas »

huckelberry wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 10:25 pm

I am clueless as to what you might have in mind for established evolutionary patterns for primates. How would such be involved in how science could determine if miracles happen.
Do you believe in Faith healing?
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Rivendale
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Re: Hallucinations and The Phantom God: What Neuroscience Reveals (October 2022)

Post by Rivendale »

huckelberry wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 10:25 pm
Rivendale wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 10:00 pm

The motivation of staying hidden seems problematic. It also goes against established evolutionary patterns for primates. But I guess you could buy into DCP's epistemic distance idea.
Rivendale

I am clueless as to what you might have in mind for established evolutionary patterns for primates. How would such be involved in how science could determine if miracles happen.
Primates practice pareidolia. It evolved for survival mechanism as well as other self protective benefits. If there is supernatural intervention don't you think that is strange that the patterns observed by primates are indistinguishable from miracles? It is the lucky sock phenomenon that is a vestige from those ages long ago. And if the lucky sock doesn't work, you did something wrong. Imagine a miracle did happen amongst the masses of humanity. The cancer cell that went into remission. The plane crash that saved that one individual. The life that was completely changed. These montages are self selected to buttress belief. Pareidolia and miracles are indistinguishable. Unless you can produce one amputee that is healed, then I am all ears.
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Re: Hallucinations and The Phantom God: What Neuroscience Reveals (October 2022)

Post by huckelberry »

drumdude wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 10:20 pm
huckelberry wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 10:11 pm

drumdude, I do not believe I can call up miracles. It would be nice if prayers healed people on a regular basis, It doesn't to my knowledge. Obviously it would be easier to believe in miracles if they happened upon a regular basis or upon demand. But the fact that they do not and cannot be called up upon demand does not demonstrate they do not happen.
I would be willing to accept that except... religions say they DO work.

This is a bit like someone saying evolution is a correct theory, we just haven't found the fossil evidence yet. If evolution is true, we should find fossils. In fact we find them in the strata they're predicted to be in, confirming the theory day after day. If God is real, his promise that prayer heals should mean something.

The way religious people get out of this is that they say "God works in mysterious ways." The problem with that is it's indistinguishable from no God at all. You can believe in it if you want, but it's about as real as Unicorns at that point.
I do not believe any promise that prayer heals. I do pray for healing but I do not think I have any power to demand it. I am not even vaguely surprised by the observation that healing is not usually the result. My hope is more in the daily bread vein as in the Lords prayer.
huckelberry
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Re: Hallucinations and The Phantom God: What Neuroscience Reveals (October 2022)

Post by huckelberry »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Fri May 06, 2022 12:30 am
huckelberry wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 10:25 pm

I am clueless as to what you might have in mind for established evolutionary patterns for primates. How would such be involved in how science could determine if miracles happen.
Do you believe in Faith healing?
doubtingthomas,

No I do not believe in faith healing. I do not think working up a whole bunch of faith is going to cause miracles. I do not believe people get sick and suffer because of faith failures. I think there is a body of bad thinking connected with the phrase. I think people get manipulated and taken advantage of by the premise of faith healing.

Just back away and quietly leave such productions.
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