DP claims you can’t criticize Mormonism without Mormon morality

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Philo Sofee
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Re: DP claims you can’t criticize Mormonism without Mormon morality

Post by Philo Sofee »

Analytics wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 6:56 pm
Physics Guy wrote:
Fri May 06, 2022 7:08 am
Isn't Mormon morality derived, not from God, but from the eternal gospel principles by which the Mormon God gained exaltation?

In mainstream theism, God is the author of all reality, not just an exalted organiser. So I think some typical theists do consider God to be the source of morality. Even in mainstream theism, though, a major school of thought holds that morality exists independently of God. Theists in this school might still insist that it was logically impossible for God to be evil, but not because God defines right and wrong. They would say that God could not make wrong be right any more than God could make 2+2 equal five.

So it would seem that plenty of theists, including Mormons (if we count them as theists), believe in objective morality that is not defined by God. If theists can do that then I don't see why atheists can't do the same, and have objective morality that does not depend on God.
I can't peel back all of the levels of irony in Peterson's position here.

According to Mormon morality, whether or not what Ron Lafferty did was wrong depends upon whether or not God really commanded him to murder them or not. According to Mormonism, God does command such things on occasion, and the correct thing to do is obey what God commands.

But even if God didn't command them to murder, Mormonism would cut the Laffertys some slack if they sincerely believed that's what God commanded. In lessons on obedience that include God commanding Isaac to kill Jacob, Mormon prophets emphasize that if you are commanded to do something that is morally wrong, you ought to obey anyway, and that you'll be blessed for your obedience, even if your course of action turns out to be "wrong."

So where is this absolute morality in Mormonism? There is none. That's because in Mormonism, the God of the mainstream Christian-Judeo tradition is dead. Mormonism's Elohim isn't God. He is a power-hungry entity who wants to increase his power by getting others to follow him. In a word, Elohim is merely an Übermensch.

So what is Mormon morality? Mormon morality simply promises that if you obey the most powerful being in the universe, that being will make you powerful too. In Mormonism, goodness is defined as following the course of action that will lead you to being a priest or priestess, a king or queen, a God or Goddess. It's all about acquiring power for the sake of having power.

So what's the difference between Mormonism's ethics and Nietzsche's ethics, exactly?
Remarkable! Thank you for thinking out loud on this! Now then, onto serious business... you don't actually expect Dr. Peterson to engage this excellent thought do you?
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Re: DP claims you can’t criticize Mormonism without Mormon morality

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Analytics wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 6:56 pm

So where is this absolute morality in Mormonism?
It's whatever the "prophet" says that "god" says. It's obedience. Don't think soldier, just do! It's absolute at the time the prophet makes the decree, until another comes and changes the "absolute" decree. Stand on one foot until another "prophet" tells you to stand on the other foot.
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Re: DP claims you can’t criticize Mormonism without Mormon morality

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drumdude wrote:
Fri May 06, 2022 5:47 am
DP is essentially saying, “yes our religion may be evil but if you don’t believe in our religion then you have no moral grounds for condemning it as evil.”
He doesn't seem to realize there's a more fundamental morality: don't do harm to people for your own benefit or I'll shove my boot up your arse.

It's a real thing. It's seems to be the TAO underlying all morality.

Mormonism not required.

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Re: DP claims you can’t criticize Mormonism without Mormon morality

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I have to point out that Mormonism isn't clearly a DCT religion. I've said before I had a Book of Mormon teacher with a Harvard degree in Divinity who said the same thing, that if the prophet tells you to kill someone, do it, and you'll be blessed for it. In other words, if it was the wrong thing to do, you'll still be blessed because obedience is the first law of heaven. In that way, it's actually not a clean DCT. More like a Mobocracy.

But Mormonism doesn't have a clearly laid out foundation of moral reasoning or ethics. Remember, some guy, whether Smith or someone else, made up the Book of Mormon, and made up other revelations and procedures as the Church has gone along, and the last thing we'd expect is for it to be consistent. Sometimes it sounds like Divine command theory, "Kill Laban". Sometimes it sounds like hedonism "men are that they might have joy". Sometimes it sounds like some weird, galactic Hall of Justice, see Shade's example of God obeying the law of the Gods. Sometimes it sounds like either existentialism or Positivism or moral pragmatism depending on who is teaching the class, see Alma 32.
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Re: DP claims you can’t criticize Mormonism without Mormon morality

Post by drumdude »

Yep. I often see DCP defending a version of post-modernist relativism because of Mormonism’s schizophrenic mutually contradictory philosophical stances. He does this especially when talking about other religions, particularly Islam. Only when it comes to atheism does Dan throw away the postmodernist charity and decide that if there is any absolute truth in the world, it’s that atheists can’t be right.

He knows there’s a God, but I increasingly think that DCP has little conviction about what the hell that God is or what religion is true. He thinks Mormonism might be the best description of that God, but he knows deep down Mormonism is self contradictory and cannot be a complete picture of what’s actually going on.

He’s hoping that being a Mormon gets him a reward in the afterlife even if he’s wrong but I think he’s starting to have doubts about that. What kind of heaven is eating decadent meals with his wife and bumping into general authorities every night for eternity? Will everyone be doing this, and will that take away DCPs ability to brag about it? Might be his version of hell…
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Re: DP claims you can’t criticize Mormonism without Mormon morality

Post by Dr Moore »

Honestly who cares what DCP writes anymore?
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Re: DP claims you can’t criticize Mormonism without Mormon morality

Post by Tator »

Dr Moore wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 4:33 pm
Honestly who cares what DCP writes anymore?
This is true, he has been reduced to just plagiarizing himself.
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Re: DP claims you can’t criticize Mormonism without Mormon morality

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He is still one of the faces of Mormon apologetics. But, the guy doesn't seem to have an original thought. I find myself losing interest in what he says, as well, as time marches on. Even so, I find it interesting that he copies Joseph Smith, the great prophet plagiarizer, in method. Joseph took from what was around him, cobbled it together, and called it revelation, proclaiming himself as god's chosen one, for his own glory. DP finds quotes and articles in the ether and libraries and elsewhere, cobbles them together, and calls it his own without proper attribution, for his own glory also.
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Re: DP claims you can’t criticize Mormonism without Mormon morality

Post by drumdude »

He’s the only Mormon apologist that even attempts to engage with critics. The rest just bury their head in the sand.
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Re: DP claims you can’t criticize Mormonism without Mormon morality

Post by Moksha »

So is Dr. Peterson saying that you can't criticize the murderous and vengeful side of Mormonism without first understanding its devout, friendly, and helpful side? That would make sense being that is where most LDS members are coming from.
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